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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years 12:27 - Jun 28 with 2061 viewsThisIsMyUsername

3,518 counts of accessory to murder, due to serving at Sachenhausen as an SS guard.

As someone with a big interest in Second World War history, I struggle to decide my moral position on stories such as this. On one hand, if he actively took part in the killing process then justice should be pursued, however if he is guilty by association purely through having been a guard there, is it proportionate in 2022 to convict and jail a 101-year-old? Not all SS guards were necessarily brutal and directly involved in the killings. How do you prove what he did and his level of involvement?

What do other people think?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61963473
[Post edited 28 Jun 2022 12:28]

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 12:40 - Jun 28 with 2000 viewsDarth_Koont

Tricky one. But ...

In any “normal” case of torture and murder, even an accessory wouldn’t be spared because of their age, would they?

And while people can say this was a war, he was only following orders, a cog in an industrial machine etc., there’s a reason why the camps were run by the SS and their nature kept largely secret from the rest of the population. These were the hardcore fanatical ideologues who didn’t just know what they were doing, they took pride in it.

So I’m leaning towards him paying for it even if it’s so little and even if it’s at the end of his life. I’m generally very much against punishment without hope of or need for rehabilitation, but I think the unique nature of these crimes demand a much stronger response.

Pronouns: He/Him

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 12:42 - Jun 28 with 1986 viewsPlums

I also have an avid interest in Second World War history (are you going to We Have Ways Fest BTW?). It's pretty well documented that nobody was punished for refusing camp duty - they were simply transferred away to another unit. I know that may not have been common knowledge at the time but it does mean that there is sound basis that those who were there were complicit.
It's as much about the optics for future criminals as the punishment of the latterly discovered ones but he's had decades of freedom denied to the victims and their families so it's pretty clear for me that the sentence is just.

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 12:44 - Jun 28 with 1965 viewsMeadowlark

Justice? He'll still only be 103 when he's released on parole!
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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 12:45 - Jun 28 with 1961 viewsnodge_blue

You weren't in the SS unless you were of a fanatical disposition.

I think some form of punishment is still appropriate. He's lived a life presumably under cover. he could have come forward himself much earlier.

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 12:51 - Jun 28 with 1931 viewsDanTheMan

I personally think "Superior Orders" defence is not an excuse but let's put that aside for the moment.

You have to remember that people were not in the SS by chance, you have to be a "true" Nazi to be there. It was voluntary, nobody (as far as I am aware) was conscripted into it.

There were very few people ever acquitted for being in the SS and at the camps.

Richard Bock springs to mind - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_B%C3%B6ck
[Post edited 28 Jun 2022 12:52]

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 13:30 - Jun 28 with 1849 viewsLeaky

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 12:45 - Jun 28 by nodge_blue

You weren't in the SS unless you were of a fanatical disposition.

I think some form of punishment is still appropriate. He's lived a life presumably under cover. he could have come forward himself much earlier.


Interestingly I did some work for a guy a few years back, who was a member of the Romanian SS. He was wounded at Stalingrad. He later became a British POW settled in this country & married an English girl. The reason he gave, was that he was fighting communism. As a young man he wanted to work on his father's farm, the power's that be told him he had to work in a factory. So he joined the fight against communism.
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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 14:18 - Jun 28 with 1759 viewsDanTheMan

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 13:30 - Jun 28 by Leaky

Interestingly I did some work for a guy a few years back, who was a member of the Romanian SS. He was wounded at Stalingrad. He later became a British POW settled in this country & married an English girl. The reason he gave, was that he was fighting communism. As a young man he wanted to work on his father's farm, the power's that be told him he had to work in a factory. So he joined the fight against communism.


That may be the reasoning given, but the SS were the hardcore Nazis. You had to prove you had no Jewish family and then followed further indoctrination into treating enemies as sub-human.

Romania at the time had a quite large Fascist following (Iron Guard) and committed a lot of mass killings of Jews, although that was under Antonescu and not the SS.

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 14:27 - Jun 28 with 1722 viewsBlueNomad

Visit Sachsenhausen and see what happened there - it will chill you to the bone.
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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 14:28 - Jun 28 with 1717 viewsLeaky

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 14:18 - Jun 28 by DanTheMan

That may be the reasoning given, but the SS were the hardcore Nazis. You had to prove you had no Jewish family and then followed further indoctrination into treating enemies as sub-human.

Romania at the time had a quite large Fascist following (Iron Guard) and committed a lot of mass killings of Jews, although that was under Antonescu and not the SS.


You may be correct however this guy (I have known most of my life) was just from a simple farming family, probably about 18 years old at that time, probably no interest in politics. After all a lot of families didn't have a radio ,let alone TV & the internet. However it was a very interesting conversation.
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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 17:51 - Jun 28 with 1522 viewsChurchman

Funny how these people ‘had nothing to do with it’, ‘only obeying orders’ etc. he should be imprisoned for what remains of his life and be grateful he wasn’t executed as he and his mates deserved to be. Age has nothing to do with it. He and his mates denied 1000s of innocent people the chance of life.

The SS, both the combat private army and the camp guards did appalling things and most of them enjoyed it. Shooting prisoners, herding people including women and children into barns and chucking in grenades, razing villages, slavery, show executions, death camps, starvation, torture. There is nothing this lot wouldn’t stoop to.

The Wehrmacht weren’t a whole lot better and for the german civilians of the time denying all knowledge? Understandable but ludicrous.

It’s no wonder allied soldiers shot a lot of SS when capturing them.
[Post edited 28 Jun 2022 19:57]
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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 17:54 - Jun 28 with 1521 viewsHatStand

Caant

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 18:05 - Jun 28 with 1503 viewsFelstow1978

Look at the positives here ... in just 5 years he will probably be handed a safe seat by the Tories

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 18:13 - Jun 28 with 1478 viewsChurchman

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 18:05 - Jun 28 by Felstow1978

Look at the positives here ... in just 5 years he will probably be handed a safe seat by the Tories


He’ll have to be about 130 before the tories ever get near power again. But I get your point.

Edit: reading the posts below, they are right. This isn’t a topic to joke about.
[Post edited 28 Jun 2022 21:46]
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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 19:11 - Jun 28 with 1423 viewsbrogansnose

Incredible that he hasn't been to trial before he reached 101 years of age which is not the option that the 3,518 victims had. The camps needed ' guards, cooks and clerks' and all were culpable of the crime and knew full well what was going on and the purpose of the camps and they were essential so as to facilitate the crimes. Let's not forget that the SS had a fighting military arm to which they could have transfered.


Incredible also the amount of perpetrators of crimes against humanity, like many of the Einsatzgruppen, were never sent for trial.
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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 19:13 - Jun 28 with 1417 viewsLeaky

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 18:05 - Jun 28 by Felstow1978

Look at the positives here ... in just 5 years he will probably be handed a safe seat by the Tories


I don't usually post on this part of the site due to the political input. I usually keep to the football section . I have made a comment on this thread due to the historical connection. Having a mother in law who was brought up in Nazi Germany .A father who fought at Monti Casino. An Ohpa who fought in the Western Front on the German side & a Gran Father who was at Scarpa Flow. I have listened to both sides, the only loser were the the people on both sides who had to kill each other. I have an interest in both world wars. As well as being a supporter of Fortuna Blues. While the op is correct if your guilty of crimes against humanity if convicted you do your time. I find Felstow 1978 post offensive
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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 21:39 - Jun 28 with 1330 viewsBloomBlue

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 19:13 - Jun 28 by Leaky

I don't usually post on this part of the site due to the political input. I usually keep to the football section . I have made a comment on this thread due to the historical connection. Having a mother in law who was brought up in Nazi Germany .A father who fought at Monti Casino. An Ohpa who fought in the Western Front on the German side & a Gran Father who was at Scarpa Flow. I have listened to both sides, the only loser were the the people on both sides who had to kill each other. I have an interest in both world wars. As well as being a supporter of Fortuna Blues. While the op is correct if your guilty of crimes against humanity if convicted you do your time. I find Felstow 1978 post offensive


There is an option to flag a comment as abusive.

I agree with you given what the nazi's did I think that comment is offensive even if it was meant as a joke.
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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 21:51 - Jun 28 with 1295 viewsChurchman

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 19:11 - Jun 28 by brogansnose

Incredible that he hasn't been to trial before he reached 101 years of age which is not the option that the 3,518 victims had. The camps needed ' guards, cooks and clerks' and all were culpable of the crime and knew full well what was going on and the purpose of the camps and they were essential so as to facilitate the crimes. Let's not forget that the SS had a fighting military arm to which they could have transfered.


Incredible also the amount of perpetrators of crimes against humanity, like many of the Einsatzgruppen, were never sent for trial.


The SS military arm committed horrendous crimes of their own. They might have been well trained and well equipped, but they were appalling in every way.
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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 21:52 - Jun 28 with 1292 viewsjeera

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 19:13 - Jun 28 by Leaky

I don't usually post on this part of the site due to the political input. I usually keep to the football section . I have made a comment on this thread due to the historical connection. Having a mother in law who was brought up in Nazi Germany .A father who fought at Monti Casino. An Ohpa who fought in the Western Front on the German side & a Gran Father who was at Scarpa Flow. I have listened to both sides, the only loser were the the people on both sides who had to kill each other. I have an interest in both world wars. As well as being a supporter of Fortuna Blues. While the op is correct if your guilty of crimes against humanity if convicted you do your time. I find Felstow 1978 post offensive


I'm sure he didn't mean to be offensive but I can see why you/anyone may find it distasteful.

Maybe just send admin a quick note and they'll remove it without too much fuss.

It (Nazi) has been used many a time to describe someone over-zealous at their job hasn't it and in other context for particularly unpleasant types who persecute other people and usually the actual connection isn't made by the user to the real thing.

But given the current climate and the rise of actual Nazis in some quarters and for all the reasons you outline it's probably best people stick to its true meaning and not use it as a triviality.

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 07:02 - Jun 29 with 1123 viewsLeaky

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 21:52 - Jun 28 by jeera

I'm sure he didn't mean to be offensive but I can see why you/anyone may find it distasteful.

Maybe just send admin a quick note and they'll remove it without too much fuss.

It (Nazi) has been used many a time to describe someone over-zealous at their job hasn't it and in other context for particularly unpleasant types who persecute other people and usually the actual connection isn't made by the user to the real thing.

But given the current climate and the rise of actual Nazis in some quarters and for all the reasons you outline it's probably best people stick to its true meaning and not use it as a triviality.


I preferred to leave the post up there for all to see. I could have reported it as an abusive however admin would just have deleted it.
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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 14:46 - Jun 29 with 941 viewsElephantintheRoom

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 14:18 - Jun 28 by DanTheMan

That may be the reasoning given, but the SS were the hardcore Nazis. You had to prove you had no Jewish family and then followed further indoctrination into treating enemies as sub-human.

Romania at the time had a quite large Fascist following (Iron Guard) and committed a lot of mass killings of Jews, although that was under Antonescu and not the SS.


Absolute tosh. The Waffen SS was effectively Hitler’s foreign legion by the war’s later years - including thousands or recruits from France, Benelux, scandanaviia - and somewhat bizarrely, India - as well as Eastern Europe.

When the war was almost over and the allies actually invaded Europe in 1944 most of the heavy lifting was done by SS Hitler Jugend - mostly aged 15-17 so children mostly

A lot of death camp guards were Ukrainian who were still a bit cross about the mass starvation imposed on millions of their fellow countrymen a few years earlier. If you look in the history books you’ll find why - not so much antisemitism as revenge

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 15:04 - Jun 29 with 905 viewsDanTheMan

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 14:46 - Jun 29 by ElephantintheRoom

Absolute tosh. The Waffen SS was effectively Hitler’s foreign legion by the war’s later years - including thousands or recruits from France, Benelux, scandanaviia - and somewhat bizarrely, India - as well as Eastern Europe.

When the war was almost over and the allies actually invaded Europe in 1944 most of the heavy lifting was done by SS Hitler Jugend - mostly aged 15-17 so children mostly

A lot of death camp guards were Ukrainian who were still a bit cross about the mass starvation imposed on millions of their fellow countrymen a few years earlier. If you look in the history books you’ll find why - not so much antisemitism as revenge


For the Waffen SS there were strict policies on joining which were somewhat loosened as the war went on. Potentially the whole "Jewish" lineage part of the process of joining didn't apply to Waffen SS as it's been a while since I've read up on it but I believed it applied to both.

Obviously the Waffen was not as strict as the war went on with more countries being added onto the list of OK countries . They just needed people especially once it got hairy in the Soviet Union but even near the end certain people were not allowed to be conscripted.

So I think "absolute tosh" is probably a bit far. And certainly for the Germanic SS they absolutely were fully bought into Nazi ideology.

EDIT: To be clear as well, the context of this thread was about Sachsenhausen not Sobibor, Treblinka etc. where there was a lot more foreign volunteers.
[Post edited 29 Jun 2022 15:13]

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 18:08 - Jun 29 with 816 viewsMullet

I think 5 years of state care and decades of life between being in the SS is incredibly light. He is incredibly lucky in my opinion.

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101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 19:30 - Jun 29 with 753 viewsChurchman

101-year-old former concentration camp guard jailed for 5 years on 14:46 - Jun 29 by ElephantintheRoom

Absolute tosh. The Waffen SS was effectively Hitler’s foreign legion by the war’s later years - including thousands or recruits from France, Benelux, scandanaviia - and somewhat bizarrely, India - as well as Eastern Europe.

When the war was almost over and the allies actually invaded Europe in 1944 most of the heavy lifting was done by SS Hitler Jugend - mostly aged 15-17 so children mostly

A lot of death camp guards were Ukrainian who were still a bit cross about the mass starvation imposed on millions of their fellow countrymen a few years earlier. If you look in the history books you’ll find why - not so much antisemitism as revenge


Your post starts with the words ‘absolute tosh’. Sorry, the SS were never anyone’s foreign legion. They were Hitler’s/ Himmler’s private army and more importantly murder squad.it’s what they did.

I think you need to have a read on the SS origins, it’s make up, how it evolved, what it actually did and when.

Of the German divisions in Normandy in 1944, about 10 were SS. One (12th) was Hitlerjugend. The SS divisions were the most fanatical, best trained and best equipped. They really weren’t ‘mostly 15-17’. I’m no expert so please correct me/ send me the link.

Air power decimated them. ‘Cab Rank’ P47s (Thunderbolts) and Hawker Typhoons hammered them by day so the couldn’t move. Night was better but even then there were incidents where they got mashed by Bomber Command, intruders and anything the allies could throw in.
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