| Football violence 10:23 - Oct 18 with 11979 views | noggin |
I follow a terrace culture group on Fb, not because I ever got involved but because it has always fascinated me. Anyway, a recent thread was discussing Swansea going in the home end at Millwall. A Millwall supporter was saying he remembered it and that the only other group to do it was Ipswich. I presume that was the 78 game but does anyone know if that was intentional or a terrible mistake? Did Ipswich really take it to Millwall at the Old Den? |  |
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| Football violence on 10:52 - Oct 18 with 5958 views | PJH |
As I remember it, but I might get corrected by others that were there, that was where ITFC supporters had supposed to be. It was not an all ticket game and my mate and I went in the other end but I think we were supposed to be at the other end.
Not sure that Millwall had an 'end' as such because the BBC documentary on TV not long before the game had three distinct sections of Millwall hooligans, one of which was 'The Halfway Line.'
I remember slapping my mates arms down as he started to raise them when George Burley scored our first goal and I also just showed a Millwall supporter my watch when he asked me what the time was, possibly to hear my accent.
We had to look as miserable as possible walking through Millwall supports on our way back to the railway station (New Cross?).
Most of the trouble during the game was in the other end plus ITFC supporters in the seats having broken glass showered on them after bottles had been chucked into the roof above them.
There was also, of course, the pitch invasion.
That was how I remember it but it was not a question of ITFC trying to 'take' the Millwall end, that was where they were supposed to be. |  | | |
| Football violence on 11:09 - Oct 18 with 5876 views | MattinLondon |
I know that many posters use ‘modern football’ as a derogatory term but what with the violence of the 70s/80s, awful stadia and third rate facilities, without the TV money I wonder in what state football would be in now. |  | | |
| Football violence on 11:17 - Oct 18 with 5821 views | RobTheMonk |
This reminds me of that football hooligan episode of Life on Mars where Sam Tyler calls out football hooliganism. Felt like it was coming just as much from John Simms as it was the character he portrayed. |  | | |
| Football violence on 11:17 - Oct 18 with 5813 views | noggin |
| Football violence on 10:52 - Oct 18 by PJH |
As I remember it, but I might get corrected by others that were there, that was where ITFC supporters had supposed to be. It was not an all ticket game and my mate and I went in the other end but I think we were supposed to be at the other end.
Not sure that Millwall had an 'end' as such because the BBC documentary on TV not long before the game had three distinct sections of Millwall hooligans, one of which was 'The Halfway Line.'
I remember slapping my mates arms down as he started to raise them when George Burley scored our first goal and I also just showed a Millwall supporter my watch when he asked me what the time was, possibly to hear my accent.
We had to look as miserable as possible walking through Millwall supports on our way back to the railway station (New Cross?).
Most of the trouble during the game was in the other end plus ITFC supporters in the seats having broken glass showered on them after bottles had been chucked into the roof above them.
There was also, of course, the pitch invasion.
That was how I remember it but it was not a question of ITFC trying to 'take' the Millwall end, that was where they were supposed to be. |
The name of the stand was mentioned but I can't find the thread now. Just surprised me that a Millwall lad was saying that Ipswich was the only other group that went into that stand.He didn't mention the game but I assume it was 78. | |
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| Football violence on 11:18 - Oct 18 with 5794 views | DJR |
| Football violence on 11:09 - Oct 18 by MattinLondon |
I know that many posters use ‘modern football’ as a derogatory term but what with the violence of the 70s/80s, awful stadia and third rate facilities, without the TV money I wonder in what state football would be in now. |
To be honest, I preferred it then. Money didn't dominate, and Ipswich thus were thus able to spend getting on for 20 years in the top division. You could also turn up at the ground and stand with your mates, without the difficulty of trying to get seats together. |  | | |
| Football violence on 11:26 - Oct 18 with 5749 views | Bluespeed225 |
| Football violence on 10:52 - Oct 18 by PJH |
As I remember it, but I might get corrected by others that were there, that was where ITFC supporters had supposed to be. It was not an all ticket game and my mate and I went in the other end but I think we were supposed to be at the other end.
Not sure that Millwall had an 'end' as such because the BBC documentary on TV not long before the game had three distinct sections of Millwall hooligans, one of which was 'The Halfway Line.'
I remember slapping my mates arms down as he started to raise them when George Burley scored our first goal and I also just showed a Millwall supporter my watch when he asked me what the time was, possibly to hear my accent.
We had to look as miserable as possible walking through Millwall supports on our way back to the railway station (New Cross?).
Most of the trouble during the game was in the other end plus ITFC supporters in the seats having broken glass showered on them after bottles had been chucked into the roof above them.
There was also, of course, the pitch invasion.
That was how I remember it but it was not a question of ITFC trying to 'take' the Millwall end, that was where they were supposed to be. |
The bottles in the rafters was an old Millwall tactic. I was told that by a chap who went there in 66’! You can only hit one person with a bottle, so a more scatter gun effect was employed! In the return the hockey sticks song was heard, and the sticks came out! ‘With a shovel and pick and a hockey stick, Hi Ho’! That was from another chap, and yet another independent witness told me how he drove his car through a load of them in PR on the same day! It was a more innocent time! |  | | |
| Football violence on 11:29 - Oct 18 with 5701 views | ITFC_Forever |
| Football violence on 11:26 - Oct 18 by Bluespeed225 |
The bottles in the rafters was an old Millwall tactic. I was told that by a chap who went there in 66’! You can only hit one person with a bottle, so a more scatter gun effect was employed! In the return the hockey sticks song was heard, and the sticks came out! ‘With a shovel and pick and a hockey stick, Hi Ho’! That was from another chap, and yet another independent witness told me how he drove his car through a load of them in PR on the same day! It was a more innocent time! |
A guy who lived in our road used to go all the time in the 60s and 70s.... his friend was a West Ham fan, so if ITFC were away and West Ham were playing someone decent, they would go to Upton Park.
He can remember a game in around 1966 when West Ham played Man U and the glass bottles against the roof tactic was used then, so crowd trouble was already on the rise in the mid-60s. |  |
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| Football violence on 11:31 - Oct 18 with 5690 views | Illinoisblue |
| Football violence on 11:29 - Oct 18 by ITFC_Forever |
A guy who lived in our road used to go all the time in the 60s and 70s.... his friend was a West Ham fan, so if ITFC were away and West Ham were playing someone decent, they would go to Upton Park.
He can remember a game in around 1966 when West Ham played Man U and the glass bottles against the roof tactic was used then, so crowd trouble was already on the rise in the mid-60s. |
It’s interesting to think back then it was all organic hate. Nothing organized by phone, or internet. |  |
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| Football violence on 11:40 - Oct 18 with 5585 views | MattinLondon |
| Football violence on 11:18 - Oct 18 by DJR |
To be honest, I preferred it then. Money didn't dominate, and Ipswich thus were thus able to spend getting on for 20 years in the top division. You could also turn up at the ground and stand with your mates, without the difficulty of trying to get seats together. |
Fair points.
But do you think that Ipswich’s class back then clouds some memories of the challenges facing English football? | | | |
| Football violence on 12:00 - Oct 18 with 5467 views | DJR |
| Football violence on 11:40 - Oct 18 by MattinLondon |
Fair points.
But do you think that Ipswich’s class back then clouds some memories of the challenges facing English football? |
Probably hooliganism was the main one, but that was only really something that happened between consenting adults, and from recollection didn't really spill over to innocent people as it sometimes does now. As it was, as a teenager in the North Stand in the 70s, I quite enjoyed the chants and toing and froing between the two sets of fans, knowing there was a phalanx of police between us. As regards the state of the stadia, that was what we were used to, so we didn't know any different. It's a bit like footage from the 70s which appears to make out that things were grim then, but I only have good memories of things like Ipswich's succcess and the fantastic summer of 1976. Having said all this, at my age now I do welcome being able to sit down at games, but if that weren't the case, I suppose I would just take things in my stride.
EDIT: It's a bit like my experience of renting in the late 70s and 80s. Properties were not necessarily pristine but at the same time rents were reasonable and landlords weren't out to get every penny as they do now whatever the state of the property, if my children's' experience is anything to go by. [Post edited 18 Oct 2022 12:09]
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| Football violence on 12:56 - Oct 18 with 5252 views | LowroadBlue |
| Football violence on 11:17 - Oct 18 by noggin |
The name of the stand was mentioned but I can't find the thread now. Just surprised me that a Millwall lad was saying that Ipswich was the only other group that went into that stand.He didn't mention the game but I assume it was 78. |
I believe it was the Cold Blow Lane End.. | | | |
| Football violence on 12:58 - Oct 18 with 5255 views | north_stand77 |
I was at that Millwall game in 1978. We went by coach which dropped us off near the ground. There were loads of coaches that day and we were told to go behind the goal with other Ipswich fans on some old concrete open standing terracing.
Once the game started, it was obvious that Millwall fans could wander around the ground to get to different areas. It soon became obvious that the Ipswich end was now full of Millwall too.
I have posted on here before that there were some young ipswich fans near me, and I could see a Millwall fan standing behind them who proceeded to hit/tap them in turn on the head with a lump of 4 x4 wood, just kept tapping., trying to provoke them. They were so frightened they just stood and took it and didn't even turn round.
We left early when we were winning 3-1 to get to the sanctuary of our coach. Trouble was they had parked them away from the ground and we ended up wandering round Peckham which in itself, was pretty hostile.
When we did get on our coach and tried to leave the area, the coach had glass bottles thrown at it, some of which came through the coach sunroof. Trouble was we were in a long traffic jam with lots of other coaches that got the same treatment.
This was my recollection. I went to lots of grounds at that time, but it was definitely my worst experience. |  | | |
| Football violence on 13:02 - Oct 18 with 5217 views | blueasfook |
Yeah I went toe to toe with a few of their top boys that day.
Not bad for an 8 year old |  |
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| Football violence on 13:19 - Oct 18 with 5120 views | Plums |
| Football violence on 11:29 - Oct 18 by ITFC_Forever |
A guy who lived in our road used to go all the time in the 60s and 70s.... his friend was a West Ham fan, so if ITFC were away and West Ham were playing someone decent, they would go to Upton Park.
He can remember a game in around 1966 when West Ham played Man U and the glass bottles against the roof tactic was used then, so crowd trouble was already on the rise in the mid-60s. |
Football violence was an issue in the 1920s. If it didn't affect the game on the pitch, the referee didn't report it so records are limited but there are stories around of some pretty nasty incidents.
This seems a decent timeline going back centuries!
http://www.sirc.org/publik/fvhist.html |  |
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| Football violence on 13:20 - Oct 18 with 5100 views | DJR |
| Football violence on 12:00 - Oct 18 by DJR |
Probably hooliganism was the main one, but that was only really something that happened between consenting adults, and from recollection didn't really spill over to innocent people as it sometimes does now. As it was, as a teenager in the North Stand in the 70s, I quite enjoyed the chants and toing and froing between the two sets of fans, knowing there was a phalanx of police between us. As regards the state of the stadia, that was what we were used to, so we didn't know any different. It's a bit like footage from the 70s which appears to make out that things were grim then, but I only have good memories of things like Ipswich's succcess and the fantastic summer of 1976. Having said all this, at my age now I do welcome being able to sit down at games, but if that weren't the case, I suppose I would just take things in my stride.
EDIT: It's a bit like my experience of renting in the late 70s and 80s. Properties were not necessarily pristine but at the same time rents were reasonable and landlords weren't out to get every penny as they do now whatever the state of the property, if my children's' experience is anything to go by. [Post edited 18 Oct 2022 12:09]
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My comment about consenting adults is wrong, given the death of 39 innocent fans at Heysel as a result of the action of Liverpool fans. But Heysel has been conveniently airbrushed out of history according to both my Everton-supporting father-in-law and Mark Lawrenson, who spent a harrowing night in a Brussels hospital following an injury during the game.
https://www.planetfootball.com/in-depth/mark-lawrenson-i-was-in-hospital-surroun [Post edited 18 Oct 2022 13:21]
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| Football violence on 13:21 - Oct 18 with 5101 views | woodbridge_blue |
| Football violence on 10:52 - Oct 18 by PJH |
As I remember it, but I might get corrected by others that were there, that was where ITFC supporters had supposed to be. It was not an all ticket game and my mate and I went in the other end but I think we were supposed to be at the other end.
Not sure that Millwall had an 'end' as such because the BBC documentary on TV not long before the game had three distinct sections of Millwall hooligans, one of which was 'The Halfway Line.'
I remember slapping my mates arms down as he started to raise them when George Burley scored our first goal and I also just showed a Millwall supporter my watch when he asked me what the time was, possibly to hear my accent.
We had to look as miserable as possible walking through Millwall supports on our way back to the railway station (New Cross?).
Most of the trouble during the game was in the other end plus ITFC supporters in the seats having broken glass showered on them after bottles had been chucked into the roof above them.
There was also, of course, the pitch invasion.
That was how I remember it but it was not a question of ITFC trying to 'take' the Millwall end, that was where they were supposed to be. |
That's a pretty accurate summary. As I recall, the Special only arrived in New Cross Gate station at around 2.30 because it had to travel on goods lines all around North, West and South London.
A few police escorted us to the ground and as all the Millwall lunatics were already in the ground we marched through the largely empty streets full of bravado.
As soon as we got through the turnstiles for the end allocated to Ipswich supporters all hell broke loose with bricks and bottles being cascaded down on us. Me and my mates quickly split up and I didn't see them again until we met back on the train.
This was the opposite end to where most of the trouble broke out, so it definitely wasn't a case of us taking their end!!. I also saw kids no more than 12 or 13 years old looking for trouble and it was easily the most hostile atmosphere I have ever been involved in at a football match.
I too left at 3-1, it's the only time in over 40 years that I have missed a Town goal whilst attending a match.
On the train back we pulled down all the blinds and many windows got smashed.
I seem to recall that this was the last special train where alcohol was officially allowed. I know that trains to the semi-final and final were dry, although a significant number of supporters seemed to get around that! | | | |
| Football violence on 13:22 - Oct 18 with 5094 views | witchdoctor |
| Football violence on 12:00 - Oct 18 by DJR |
Probably hooliganism was the main one, but that was only really something that happened between consenting adults, and from recollection didn't really spill over to innocent people as it sometimes does now. As it was, as a teenager in the North Stand in the 70s, I quite enjoyed the chants and toing and froing between the two sets of fans, knowing there was a phalanx of police between us. As regards the state of the stadia, that was what we were used to, so we didn't know any different. It's a bit like footage from the 70s which appears to make out that things were grim then, but I only have good memories of things like Ipswich's succcess and the fantastic summer of 1976. Having said all this, at my age now I do welcome being able to sit down at games, but if that weren't the case, I suppose I would just take things in my stride.
EDIT: It's a bit like my experience of renting in the late 70s and 80s. Properties were not necessarily pristine but at the same time rents were reasonable and landlords weren't out to get every penny as they do now whatever the state of the property, if my children's' experience is anything to go by. [Post edited 18 Oct 2022 12:09]
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no phalanx of fuzz in the late 60’s in the north..you went in there and chances were an away firm had already take their place in the middle… |  | | |
| Football violence on 13:26 - Oct 18 with 5050 views | thebooks |
| Football violence on 11:40 - Oct 18 by MattinLondon |
Fair points.
But do you think that Ipswich’s class back then clouds some memories of the challenges facing English football? |
I started going in around 79 (when I would have been 7) with my grandad, who'd smuggle me into the NS. The away fans were in there as well.
It was completely different, and definitely better in a lot of ways: noisier, more fun, more of a genuinely communal experience etc., but one thing not mentioned here was how racist it was. That has improved immesaurably. |  | | |
| Football violence on 13:33 - Oct 18 with 4978 views | Radlett_blue |
| Football violence on 13:20 - Oct 18 by DJR |
My comment about consenting adults is wrong, given the death of 39 innocent fans at Heysel as a result of the action of Liverpool fans. But Heysel has been conveniently airbrushed out of history according to both my Everton-supporting father-in-law and Mark Lawrenson, who spent a harrowing night in a Brussels hospital following an injury during the game.
https://www.planetfootball.com/in-depth/mark-lawrenson-i-was-in-hospital-surroun [Post edited 18 Oct 2022 13:21]
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I started going to football in the 1970s & the violence was way worse than almost anything that happens now. Yes, much of it was posturing & threatening, but any opposition supporter could be considered fair game to many of the thugs. The idea that it was all groups of young men happy to have a go at each other is blatantly wrong.
Hillsborough, although it wasn't a hooligan inspired event, was a watershed moment. The Thatcher government had already been dismayed by the hooliganism of English football supporters abroad & at home (e.g. the notorious Luton - Millwall game in 1985) & had proposed various solutions, such as ID cards. The football clubs rejoiced when such ideas were rejected as unworkable, but were hugely resistant to the idea of all seater stadiums, largely on cost grounds. While this has hugely changed the atmosphere at football, it has made controlling & identifying troublemakers much easier. |  |
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| Football violence on 13:37 - Oct 18 with 4950 views | blueislander |
| Football violence on 13:21 - Oct 18 by woodbridge_blue |
That's a pretty accurate summary. As I recall, the Special only arrived in New Cross Gate station at around 2.30 because it had to travel on goods lines all around North, West and South London.
A few police escorted us to the ground and as all the Millwall lunatics were already in the ground we marched through the largely empty streets full of bravado.
As soon as we got through the turnstiles for the end allocated to Ipswich supporters all hell broke loose with bricks and bottles being cascaded down on us. Me and my mates quickly split up and I didn't see them again until we met back on the train.
This was the opposite end to where most of the trouble broke out, so it definitely wasn't a case of us taking their end!!. I also saw kids no more than 12 or 13 years old looking for trouble and it was easily the most hostile atmosphere I have ever been involved in at a football match.
I too left at 3-1, it's the only time in over 40 years that I have missed a Town goal whilst attending a match.
On the train back we pulled down all the blinds and many windows got smashed.
I seem to recall that this was the last special train where alcohol was officially allowed. I know that trains to the semi-final and final were dry, although a significant number of supporters seemed to get around that! |
I got to the ground quite early for that game, and went in to the end that I had been reliably informed was for Ipswich supporters. It filled up with Millwall fans , but there was nowhere in the ground where Town supporters had gathered in any numbers. We ended up on one of the side terraces , and felt reasonably safe there. It was the walk back to the station that was the most frightening with bricks and other missiles being thrown at us from side streets. | | | |
| Football violence on 13:38 - Oct 18 with 4942 views | StochesStotasBlewe |
| Football violence on 13:21 - Oct 18 by woodbridge_blue |
That's a pretty accurate summary. As I recall, the Special only arrived in New Cross Gate station at around 2.30 because it had to travel on goods lines all around North, West and South London.
A few police escorted us to the ground and as all the Millwall lunatics were already in the ground we marched through the largely empty streets full of bravado.
As soon as we got through the turnstiles for the end allocated to Ipswich supporters all hell broke loose with bricks and bottles being cascaded down on us. Me and my mates quickly split up and I didn't see them again until we met back on the train.
This was the opposite end to where most of the trouble broke out, so it definitely wasn't a case of us taking their end!!. I also saw kids no more than 12 or 13 years old looking for trouble and it was easily the most hostile atmosphere I have ever been involved in at a football match.
I too left at 3-1, it's the only time in over 40 years that I have missed a Town goal whilst attending a match.
On the train back we pulled down all the blinds and many windows got smashed.
I seem to recall that this was the last special train where alcohol was officially allowed. I know that trains to the semi-final and final were dry, although a significant number of supporters seemed to get around that! |
Pretty much how I remember the day.
My dad said I was mad going to Millwall (I was 17) and remember him telling me not to take my scarf. Took no notice as usual, but the scarf got rolled up and hidden under my coat once we got in the ground.
Scariest match I’ve ever been to and have never been to an away game at Millwall since. |  |
| We have no village green, or a shop.
It's very, very quiet.
I can walk to the pub. |
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| Football violence on 13:47 - Oct 18 with 4880 views | DJR |
| Football violence on 13:26 - Oct 18 by thebooks |
I started going in around 79 (when I would have been 7) with my grandad, who'd smuggle me into the NS. The away fans were in there as well.
It was completely different, and definitely better in a lot of ways: noisier, more fun, more of a genuinely communal experience etc., but one thing not mentioned here was how racist it was. That has improved immesaurably. |
Ipswich fans, given a relatively large Caribbean population for the time and quite a few black fans in the North Stand, weren't racist, as the contemporaneous account indicates.
It makes one proud to be a Town fan. | | | |
| Football violence on 13:53 - Oct 18 with 4847 views | ronnyd |
| Football violence on 10:52 - Oct 18 by PJH |
As I remember it, but I might get corrected by others that were there, that was where ITFC supporters had supposed to be. It was not an all ticket game and my mate and I went in the other end but I think we were supposed to be at the other end.
Not sure that Millwall had an 'end' as such because the BBC documentary on TV not long before the game had three distinct sections of Millwall hooligans, one of which was 'The Halfway Line.'
I remember slapping my mates arms down as he started to raise them when George Burley scored our first goal and I also just showed a Millwall supporter my watch when he asked me what the time was, possibly to hear my accent.
We had to look as miserable as possible walking through Millwall supports on our way back to the railway station (New Cross?).
Most of the trouble during the game was in the other end plus ITFC supporters in the seats having broken glass showered on them after bottles had been chucked into the roof above them.
There was also, of course, the pitch invasion.
That was how I remember it but it was not a question of ITFC trying to 'take' the Millwall end, that was where they were supposed to be. |
My workmate said to me that it was the only time he had seen Town score a hat full and never celebrated one of them. | | | |
| Football violence on 14:05 - Oct 18 with 4746 views | PJH |
| Football violence on 13:53 - Oct 18 by ronnyd |
My workmate said to me that it was the only time he had seen Town score a hat full and never celebrated one of them. |
Yes, my mate and I stayed until the end and had to walk through Millwall supporters standing on the corners on the way back to the station. It helped that my mate probably looked like a London docker, big built and in a donkey jacket.
Once back at the train, few believed that we had scored six because they had left at 3-1.
Blinds were pulled down on all the windows but the train got bricked on the way out of the station.
A day never to be forgotten. | | | |
| Football violence on 14:06 - Oct 18 with 4735 views | MattinLondon |
| Football violence on 13:47 - Oct 18 by DJR |
Ipswich fans, given a relatively large Caribbean population for the time and quite a few black fans in the North Stand, weren't racist, as the contemporaneous account indicates.
It makes one proud to be a Town fan. |
Where was that extract taken from? Cheers. | | | |
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