| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? 15:13 - Oct 7 with 16370 views | BrixtonBlue |
Presumably if you were able to measure the brainwaves of babies in the womb, you'd see that they are conscious of their surroundings, and this develops over time and through parental, peer and societal influences.
But at what point am I thinking/conscious?
And why am *I* having this consciousness? Why did *I* (whatever *I* is) come to be inside this particular human that you all know and love?
I'm a bit busy today so I'll be back later to see how you're doing. |  |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:05 - Oct 12 with 1341 views | StokieBlue |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:08 - Oct 12 by Ryorry |
You seem to be saying that evolution is simply a system that just *is*. That's obviously not enough for some of us. Why should that system of living things continuing through reproduction exist, and not an alternative system of things being a one-off & then just fizzling out?
And if your answer to that is, "that's just how it is", I'm sorry but that's not enough - doesn't answer anything really. |
You need to provide evidence for your assertion, not ask others to counter your position and say it's not good enough. You are giving life and sexual reproduction special status when it is simply the current state of laws which govern the universe.
If you want something that can theoretically exist then fizzle out then here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain
SB [Post edited 12 Oct 2019 21:06]
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:06 - Oct 12 with 1357 views | Ryorry |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:14 - Oct 12 by eireblue |
Trees falling in forests, on uninhabited islands.
They make a sound.
Doesn’t mean a human is around to hear it.
Evolution is simply a process. |
"Evolution is simply a process."
I know, I myself said as much. I've never ruled out randomness, but the point is, this is an enquiring thread, and we are examining what makes our current process, rather than some other process, the extant one. If you (or Jeera or Sparks) don't want to take that further, then fair enough, but some of us obviously do. |  |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:08 - Oct 12 with 1352 views | Ryorry |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:48 - Oct 12 by Herbivore |
You're making the mistake of thinking you/we are something special that warrants some greater explanation than that we just happen to exist. |
No, I don't, I've never said that. | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:08 - Oct 12 with 1334 views | StokieBlue |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:06 - Oct 12 by Ryorry |
"Evolution is simply a process."
I know, I myself said as much. I've never ruled out randomness, but the point is, this is an enquiring thread, and we are examining what makes our current process, rather than some other process, the extant one. If you (or Jeera or Sparks) don't want to take that further, then fair enough, but some of us obviously do. |
"and we are examining what makes our current process, rather than some other process, the extant one"
The answer to this is the laws of the universe and the laws of evolution. I am not sure what other answer you are expecting.
For a given set of universal laws the end state of the universe can be mapped to within a certain degree of accuracy (not life though although convergent evolution shows us it could be done there as well). Given a parallel universe where some universal laws are tweaked then things would be different.
SB | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:35 - Oct 12 with 1323 views | eireblue |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:06 - Oct 12 by Ryorry |
"Evolution is simply a process."
I know, I myself said as much. I've never ruled out randomness, but the point is, this is an enquiring thread, and we are examining what makes our current process, rather than some other process, the extant one. If you (or Jeera or Sparks) don't want to take that further, then fair enough, but some of us obviously do. |
It is just the process that works, that currently ended up creating humans.
I am not wishing to not take it further.
Take numbers. There is no reason for the properties of numbers.
But discovering more about numbers, is to discover more about the current universe.
That is the fascination with science.
Why, is a bit meh.
What, well there is still a lot to be discovered.
Getting practical, concentrating on the why, when the why is unknowable, rather than the what which is discoverable, has lead to things like opposing religions having different ideas, and getting a bit argumentative.
Discovering what the universe is, and investigating everything that is in it, is a pretty cool thing to do.
Consider, the advancement in answering the question of why we are all here, hasn’t really advanced much over all of human recorded history.
But take advancements in human knowledge on how the universe works, well, that’s been a bit more productive.
The rules of the universe existed when amoebas ruled the earth.
Evolution, and an asteroid, resulted in mammals that have simulation machines in their heads, that turned out to be quite a useful survival tool, and provided inquiring minds that has probably lead to science and technology. |  | | |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:37 - Oct 12 with 1320 views | jeera |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:39 - Oct 12 by WeWereZombies |
What if we don't deserve answers but some omnipotent sadistic bastid has decided we are going to get them anyway, and when we do they are going to cause our bowels to empty on the spot?
Before we have even had the chance to drop our keks
The sadistic omnipotent bastid
I'm going to think up something even more frightening to shout back at him for when he tries it on me so that he is the one to involuntarily dump.
But as he is omnipotent all that means is that his dump will engulf us all.
He really has got it all worked out.
(Still want the omnipotent bastid to be a woman, Ryorry?) |
That's one of my favourite Terry Pratchett lines.
"You know what happens to people who go around asking too many questions?
They get answers - and serve 'em bloody right". |  |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:46 - Oct 12 with 1318 views | Ryorry |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:35 - Oct 12 by eireblue |
It is just the process that works, that currently ended up creating humans.
I am not wishing to not take it further.
Take numbers. There is no reason for the properties of numbers.
But discovering more about numbers, is to discover more about the current universe.
That is the fascination with science.
Why, is a bit meh.
What, well there is still a lot to be discovered.
Getting practical, concentrating on the why, when the why is unknowable, rather than the what which is discoverable, has lead to things like opposing religions having different ideas, and getting a bit argumentative.
Discovering what the universe is, and investigating everything that is in it, is a pretty cool thing to do.
Consider, the advancement in answering the question of why we are all here, hasn’t really advanced much over all of human recorded history.
But take advancements in human knowledge on how the universe works, well, that’s been a bit more productive.
The rules of the universe existed when amoebas ruled the earth.
Evolution, and an asteroid, resulted in mammals that have simulation machines in their heads, that turned out to be quite a useful survival tool, and provided inquiring minds that has probably lead to science and technology. |
"The rules of the universe existed when amoebas ruled the earth."
Yeah but! I'm interested in how come this universe, these rules, that asteroid. Might have been others - one/s that worked differently. | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 22:05 - Oct 12 with 1309 views | sparks |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:46 - Oct 12 by Ryorry |
"The rules of the universe existed when amoebas ruled the earth."
Yeah but! I'm interested in how come this universe, these rules, that asteroid. Might have been others - one/s that worked differently. |
The answer to which is "we dont know and have no way of knowing".
Accordingly, people spouting theories based on nothing at all, is basically magical thinking. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 22:20 - Oct 12 with 1288 views | StokieBlue |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:46 - Oct 12 by Ryorry |
"The rules of the universe existed when amoebas ruled the earth."
Yeah but! I'm interested in how come this universe, these rules, that asteroid. Might have been others - one/s that worked differently. |
This has been considered before, it's call the Anthropic Principle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle
Essentially to answer your question:
"Yeah but! I'm interested in how come this universe, these rules, that asteroid. Might have been others - one/s that worked differently."
The reason it's this universe is that this particular one has the rules that allow humans to evolve and exist and thus you can be here and you can observe the universe. If the rules were different you might not be able to. That essentially answers your question we one accepts the existence of a multiverse where other variants play out.
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 22:24 - Oct 12 with 1292 views | eireblue |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:46 - Oct 12 by Ryorry |
"The rules of the universe existed when amoebas ruled the earth."
Yeah but! I'm interested in how come this universe, these rules, that asteroid. Might have been others - one/s that worked differently. |
Home come = why.
Again, going back to the tree falling thing. It doesn’t require a human to hear it, in order for a sound to be produced.
It is probably worth a read of the selfish gene by Richard Dawkins.
Doesn’t really need any special knowledge.
Professor Penrose works are probably worth a read, for stuff on the Universe.
It’s a bit like the washing up, I never get out off it by asking the wife, how can she be sure the plate wants to be clean. It is the sort of question that is meaningless and can lead to conflict, whereas, actually doing stuff leads to progress. | | | |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 02:02 - Oct 13 with 1277 views | Ryorry |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 22:24 - Oct 12 by eireblue |
Home come = why.
Again, going back to the tree falling thing. It doesn’t require a human to hear it, in order for a sound to be produced.
It is probably worth a read of the selfish gene by Richard Dawkins.
Doesn’t really need any special knowledge.
Professor Penrose works are probably worth a read, for stuff on the Universe.
It’s a bit like the washing up, I never get out off it by asking the wife, how can she be sure the plate wants to be clean. It is the sort of question that is meaningless and can lead to conflict, whereas, actually doing stuff leads to progress. |
I'm simply interested in roaming, thinking & speculating about things and different possibilities*; it's yourself & Sparks who seem stuck in the perception that I'm demanding "answers".
*Possibly comes from too much time spent driving across Europe in the family car on hols when me and my bro were kids, with him incessantly pestering our parents with "Mummy, Daddy, what if ...x... y... z"
PS thanks for the reading suggestions [Post edited 13 Oct 2019 2:06]
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 14:40 - Oct 13 with 1196 views | gordon |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 10:41 - Oct 12 by Ryorry |
"...there would be nothing to stop things just fizzling out anyway."
This gets back to my point of how come reproduction? It's a pretty weird thing when you think about it - I mean plants dropping seeds, or drooping branches into the ground which then form new plants etc, I can understand - but 2 animals mating? How & from where did the drive for that come from? (don't worry, I don't expect you personally to be able to answer! just leaving it hanging out there). |
Hi Ryorry, read some of this last night and the questions you've asked about the origins of life and how mating systems evolved are two fundamental questions that Biologists have been trying to answer for a very long time, and are absolutely fascinating questions - I'll try to say something useful on mating systems quickly here:
There are two broad categories - asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction - Asexual reproduction being when one organism creates (normally) a genetic copy of itself, and sexual reproduction being when two individuals, normally one male and female, share genetic material to create an entirely new (genetically speaking) individual.
Some species can do both - some species of starfish reproduce sexually once a year, and at other times of the year they disconnect part of a limb, which then shoots off and grows into a new (cloned) starfish. Aspen trees are similar, they are (basically) male or female, and can reproduce sexually or clone themselves.
The key question is, why is sexual reproduction the dominant form of reproduction amongst complex organisms on Earth? It has a number of weaknesses - only half the population can reproduce, it makes the isolation of populations risky, and it takes more energy/resources than asexual reproduction.
For example, if you had two simple organisms present in a stable, closed system, and one was able to reproduce asexually, and the other sexually, the one which could reproduce asexually would dominate (all other things being equal) because it would be able to increase in numbers at least twice as quickly - all individuals of the organism could reproduce, and reproduction would not be dependent on encountering an organism of the opposite sex of the same species.
But, the key advantage that sexual reproduction has is the mixing of genes which produces variation amongst a population - this variation meant that as conditions on Earth change, organisms which reproduced sexually were able to adapt to changing environments, whereas those species which reproduce asexually were not able to / less likely to do so.
Subsequently, some species whose environments remained very stable for very long periods have lost the ability to reproduce sexually and now reproduce asexually again.
Those species which can do both are often triggered by sudden environmental change to reproduce sexually (this is likely why Aspen Trees were flowering this year in the UK, because of the drought the previous summer).
Hope that's interesting - btw I agree that people saying 'that's just the law of the universe/earth/evolution' is not that useful. [Post edited 13 Oct 2019 14:41]
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 15:02 - Oct 13 with 1187 views | Ryorry |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 14:40 - Oct 13 by gordon |
Hi Ryorry, read some of this last night and the questions you've asked about the origins of life and how mating systems evolved are two fundamental questions that Biologists have been trying to answer for a very long time, and are absolutely fascinating questions - I'll try to say something useful on mating systems quickly here:
There are two broad categories - asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction - Asexual reproduction being when one organism creates (normally) a genetic copy of itself, and sexual reproduction being when two individuals, normally one male and female, share genetic material to create an entirely new (genetically speaking) individual.
Some species can do both - some species of starfish reproduce sexually once a year, and at other times of the year they disconnect part of a limb, which then shoots off and grows into a new (cloned) starfish. Aspen trees are similar, they are (basically) male or female, and can reproduce sexually or clone themselves.
The key question is, why is sexual reproduction the dominant form of reproduction amongst complex organisms on Earth? It has a number of weaknesses - only half the population can reproduce, it makes the isolation of populations risky, and it takes more energy/resources than asexual reproduction.
For example, if you had two simple organisms present in a stable, closed system, and one was able to reproduce asexually, and the other sexually, the one which could reproduce asexually would dominate (all other things being equal) because it would be able to increase in numbers at least twice as quickly - all individuals of the organism could reproduce, and reproduction would not be dependent on encountering an organism of the opposite sex of the same species.
But, the key advantage that sexual reproduction has is the mixing of genes which produces variation amongst a population - this variation meant that as conditions on Earth change, organisms which reproduced sexually were able to adapt to changing environments, whereas those species which reproduce asexually were not able to / less likely to do so.
Subsequently, some species whose environments remained very stable for very long periods have lost the ability to reproduce sexually and now reproduce asexually again.
Those species which can do both are often triggered by sudden environmental change to reproduce sexually (this is likely why Aspen Trees were flowering this year in the UK, because of the drought the previous summer).
Hope that's interesting - btw I agree that people saying 'that's just the law of the universe/earth/evolution' is not that useful. [Post edited 13 Oct 2019 14:41]
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That's ace, thanks Gordon and yes, certainly is fascinating stuff! esp
"Subsequently, some species whose environments remained very stable for very long periods have lost the ability to reproduce sexually and now reproduce asexually again.
Those species which can do both are often triggered by sudden environmental change to reproduce sexually (this is likely why Aspen Trees were flowering this year in the UK, because of the drought the previous summer)". I'll read further on that, cheers again - R. | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 15:16 - Oct 13 with 1182 views | WeWereZombies |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 14:40 - Oct 13 by gordon |
Hi Ryorry, read some of this last night and the questions you've asked about the origins of life and how mating systems evolved are two fundamental questions that Biologists have been trying to answer for a very long time, and are absolutely fascinating questions - I'll try to say something useful on mating systems quickly here:
There are two broad categories - asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction - Asexual reproduction being when one organism creates (normally) a genetic copy of itself, and sexual reproduction being when two individuals, normally one male and female, share genetic material to create an entirely new (genetically speaking) individual.
Some species can do both - some species of starfish reproduce sexually once a year, and at other times of the year they disconnect part of a limb, which then shoots off and grows into a new (cloned) starfish. Aspen trees are similar, they are (basically) male or female, and can reproduce sexually or clone themselves.
The key question is, why is sexual reproduction the dominant form of reproduction amongst complex organisms on Earth? It has a number of weaknesses - only half the population can reproduce, it makes the isolation of populations risky, and it takes more energy/resources than asexual reproduction.
For example, if you had two simple organisms present in a stable, closed system, and one was able to reproduce asexually, and the other sexually, the one which could reproduce asexually would dominate (all other things being equal) because it would be able to increase in numbers at least twice as quickly - all individuals of the organism could reproduce, and reproduction would not be dependent on encountering an organism of the opposite sex of the same species.
But, the key advantage that sexual reproduction has is the mixing of genes which produces variation amongst a population - this variation meant that as conditions on Earth change, organisms which reproduced sexually were able to adapt to changing environments, whereas those species which reproduce asexually were not able to / less likely to do so.
Subsequently, some species whose environments remained very stable for very long periods have lost the ability to reproduce sexually and now reproduce asexually again.
Those species which can do both are often triggered by sudden environmental change to reproduce sexually (this is likely why Aspen Trees were flowering this year in the UK, because of the drought the previous summer).
Hope that's interesting - btw I agree that people saying 'that's just the law of the universe/earth/evolution' is not that useful. [Post edited 13 Oct 2019 14:41]
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That's an excellent post, so much more useful than the combative tone that the thread, as usual, degenerated into. If I may dare to add to your comments, it is also useful to speculate on the Miller-Urey experiment for the origins of life on Earth:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090821213017/ http://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_chem/Exobiology/miller.html
This may explain why some of the chemicals necessary before the biology starts were present and where they came from. Another sphere of interest is hydrothermal vents:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Deep_sea_vent_hypothesis
Gets us no closer to the OP's quest for the origins of consciousness but, if life has no meaning, these questions do at least provide a pleasant way of passing the time...and may even exercise our consciousness. |  |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 07:47 - Oct 14 with 1134 views | gordon |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 15:02 - Oct 13 by Ryorry |
That's ace, thanks Gordon and yes, certainly is fascinating stuff! esp
"Subsequently, some species whose environments remained very stable for very long periods have lost the ability to reproduce sexually and now reproduce asexually again.
Those species which can do both are often triggered by sudden environmental change to reproduce sexually (this is likely why Aspen Trees were flowering this year in the UK, because of the drought the previous summer)". I'll read further on that, cheers again - R. |
https://cairngorms.co.uk/blooming-bumper-year-aspen-trees/
There's a bit about Aspen flowering this year, first time since 1996 in the UK. Aspen normally spread by cloning, so you can get loads and loads in very close proximity to each other, but all exactly the same tree. Because they rarely flower in the UK, they are very limited in their distribution though.
But following extreme environmental conditions, they flower, and reproduce sexually - this means they can spread to new areas where conditions might be more favourable, thus reducing the chances of the negative conditions causing local extinctions.
In North America, they tend to flower much more regularly and are much more widespread - it's likely that Aspen co-evolved with Beavers, and they might flower regularly in response to being gnawed at by Beavers (for similar reasons as above), thus they would likely be more widespread if we had wild beavers in the same areas as Aspen.
It's sort of the same principle as how girdling/ringing a tree will cause it to fruit / flower well the next season - it is likely to die, so it puts all it's remaining energy into trying to reproduce. | | | |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 11:49 - Oct 14 with 1106 views | Ryorry |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 07:47 - Oct 14 by gordon |
https://cairngorms.co.uk/blooming-bumper-year-aspen-trees/
There's a bit about Aspen flowering this year, first time since 1996 in the UK. Aspen normally spread by cloning, so you can get loads and loads in very close proximity to each other, but all exactly the same tree. Because they rarely flower in the UK, they are very limited in their distribution though.
But following extreme environmental conditions, they flower, and reproduce sexually - this means they can spread to new areas where conditions might be more favourable, thus reducing the chances of the negative conditions causing local extinctions.
In North America, they tend to flower much more regularly and are much more widespread - it's likely that Aspen co-evolved with Beavers, and they might flower regularly in response to being gnawed at by Beavers (for similar reasons as above), thus they would likely be more widespread if we had wild beavers in the same areas as Aspen.
It's sort of the same principle as how girdling/ringing a tree will cause it to fruit / flower well the next season - it is likely to die, so it puts all it's remaining energy into trying to reproduce. |
Cheers, bookmarked for later.
Any additional recommended reading for this aspect? "Subsequently, some species whose environments remained very stable for very long periods have lost the ability to reproduce sexually and now reproduce asexually again." | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 18:11 - Oct 14 with 1065 views | gordon |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 11:49 - Oct 14 by Ryorry |
Cheers, bookmarked for later.
Any additional recommended reading for this aspect? "Subsequently, some species whose environments remained very stable for very long periods have lost the ability to reproduce sexually and now reproduce asexually again." |
I'm on safer ground with Aspen trees, but for example, the ancestors of these lizards will have reproduced sexually, but now they are reproducing asexually. Their environment will be a contributing factor in their capability to persist with lower genetic variation, but there will be loads of other factors too I guess.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/02/21/extra-chromosomes- | | | |
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