| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? 12:09 - Feb 27 with 11318 views | KernewekBlue |
I'm interested to know who you think is at fault for our current predicament. Does the blame for our woes rest with Paul Lambert or does it sit at the feet of Marcus Evans? |  |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:09 - Feb 27 with 1789 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:40 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
So, can I take it that you agree with Marcus Evans' invetsment policy, his sales of established and promising, up and coming playing staff for relative peanuts, his constant 5 year plans, his managerial appointments and the way he puts the club first in all his thoughts and dealings with no regard for personal gain? |
Which up and coming players have we sold for peanuts? |  |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:12 - Feb 27 with 1788 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:03 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
If he bought this club to simply run it into the ground as a tax loss with a view to bleeding it dry of talent to somewhat balance the books until hoping to recoup his initial investment by selling it on afterwards, he has done himself no favours.
For a businessman of some apparent standing and prowess, he has failed miserably.
In no way is he the saviour we were all told about when he walked through the door with his inane smile and his empty rhetoric. He's a parasite, a carrion crow of an owner that will pick the bones clean of any decent assets this club once possessed. He's like a tapeworm, sucking all the goodness out of our wonderful club before slithering away to find his next victim.
Just my opinion.
Nice bloke! |
I like the way your OP says your looking for others opinions when it’s subsequently abundantly clear you’ve long made your mind up
Evans has many faults - chief amongst them being some appalling decisions on the football side and an unwillingness or inability to fund us at a level which enables us to compete at the top end of the Championship, where I and many others think we should naturally be. But most of your ‘points’ in this thread are ridiculous | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:12 - Feb 27 with 1787 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:58 - Feb 27 by Superblue95 |
Nah, the squad is more than good enough to compete in the division. Lambert is just too incompetent to get them playing a proper system/style |
Unfortunately, the squad is NOT good enough!
Failure to invest when given the opportunity to make doubly sure you have enough depth and talent to compete over a whole season is preparing to fail... yet again.
Marcus Evans has learnt nothing about football since taking the helm at this club... nothing.
His past mistakes will be repeated ad infinitum until he wrecks this club beyond repair. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:13 - Feb 27 with 1787 views | JDB23 |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:40 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
So, can I take it that you agree with Marcus Evans' invetsment policy, his sales of established and promising, up and coming playing staff for relative peanuts, his constant 5 year plans, his managerial appointments and the way he puts the club first in all his thoughts and dealings with no regard for personal gain? |
Eh? You gave your definition of current as "Since Lambert has been appointed". None of those things you mention have been done by Marcus Evans since the appointment of Lambert. |  | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:14 - Feb 27 with 1780 views | Pecker |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:43 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
Yes... it's interesting to know how the members of our fan base feels about our management and ownership's performance! |
Have you not been on here for a while then? I think this has been covered about 670 times in the last week and a half. The overriding feeling is that it is the work of some foreign intergalactic being. |  | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:14 - Feb 27 with 1777 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:08 - Feb 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
He hasn’t had little to no investment though, he was given the funds to sign 7 players last January, and then the likes of Holy, KVY, Garbutt, Norwood and Keane who are expensive acquisitions at this level |
What funds? How much are we talking here??
Please elaborate. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:15 - Feb 27 with 1773 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:14 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
What funds? How much are we talking here??
Please elaborate. |
I literally just highlighted the players he’d been able to bring in
What budget do you think the average League One side has? | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:17 - Feb 27 with 1759 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:13 - Feb 27 by JDB23 |
Eh? You gave your definition of current as "Since Lambert has been appointed". None of those things you mention have been done by Marcus Evans since the appointment of Lambert. |
LOL
This one really isn’t difficult. Since Evans came in we’ve gone from being an upper half Championship side with aspirations of promotion to the PL to and upper half League One side with aspirations of promotion to the Championship. That general regression is on Evans - both in terms of funding and decision making
However this season we are performing particularly poorly compared to where our budget and playing squad should be - that is squarely on Lambert | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:19 - Feb 27 with 1749 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:12 - Feb 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
I like the way your OP says your looking for others opinions when it’s subsequently abundantly clear you’ve long made your mind up
Evans has many faults - chief amongst them being some appalling decisions on the football side and an unwillingness or inability to fund us at a level which enables us to compete at the top end of the Championship, where I and many others think we should naturally be. But most of your ‘points’ in this thread are ridiculous |
I have my own opinion, yes, but I will continue to play devil's advocate.
Which "points" that I have made are ridiculous? | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:21 - Feb 27 with 1744 views | No9 |
The decline is long term.
Only one season since Mr E acquired ITFC has been less than mediocre.
Mr E must shoulder the responsibility for that but I do believe having a good football man by his side would have helped his investment | | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:22 - Feb 27 with 1742 views | Sikamikanico |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:03 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
If he bought this club to simply run it into the ground as a tax loss with a view to bleeding it dry of talent to somewhat balance the books until hoping to recoup his initial investment by selling it on afterwards, he has done himself no favours.
For a businessman of some apparent standing and prowess, he has failed miserably.
In no way is he the saviour we were all told about when he walked through the door with his inane smile and his empty rhetoric. He's a parasite, a carrion crow of an owner that will pick the bones clean of any decent assets this club once possessed. He's like a tapeworm, sucking all the goodness out of our wonderful club before slithering away to find his next victim.
Just my opinion.
Nice bloke! |
Its always a benefit to have one of your businesses lose money so you can reclaim 19p for every £1 you lose....
He came in to get the club promoted to the premier league and then benefit from the rise in income.
He hired Roy Keane who should have been a good choice as he had got Sunderland promoted. Keane F'd it up while wasting a vast amount of money.
Jewell was also a failure.
McCarthy came in and did well on a tight budget. A tight budget that kept us in mid table but still meant losing money each year.
I am in no way extolling the virtues of Marcus Evans. However there comes a time when you have to stop giving handouts to the problem child | | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:28 - Feb 27 with 1726 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:19 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
I have my own opinion, yes, but I will continue to play devil's advocate.
Which "points" that I have made are ridiculous? |
Christ, where to start...
‘Lambert didn't get us relegated, he was just handed the steering wheel when the brakes failed and we plunged off the cliff! The writing was on the wall LONG before that!’
We were only 14 games into the season, that isn’t LONG before. The previous season we had finished in the top half of the Championship
‘who could do a job and get us back up to The Championship with little or no investment?’
We haven’t had little to no investment in League One terms, as per my other post
‘his sales of established and promising, up and coming playing staff for relative peanuts, his constant 5 year plans’
I’m struggling to think of any youngsters sold for ‘peanuts’ other than Rhodes and Marriott which were firmly managerial decisions. Any other youngsters have either been sold for sizeable fees or poached when we could do nothing about it (eg. Knight). I can also only recall one 5 year plan
‘the way he puts the club first in all his thoughts and dealings with no regard for personal gain?’
No idea what this even means
‘ The squad we have, which has proven to be not good enough to compete consistently in League 1‘
Actually the first half of the season proved it WAS good enough to compete at the top end of the decision. Unfortunately some appalling decisions by our manager and failure to implement a consistent style have seen us slide down well below where we should be
‘His book balancing exploits have left us woefully undertalented and not fit for purpose.’
No idea what this means
‘Ifhe bought this club to simply run it into the ground as a tax loss with a view to bleeding it dry of talent to somewhat balance the books until hoping to recoup his initial investment by selling it on afterwards, he has done himself no favours.’
Bizarre and makes no sense. Why would anyone buy a business to lose money, run it down butthen expect to make money through sale?
Cant be arsed to keep going as getting more and more drivel as I go on... [Post edited 27 Feb 2020 13:29]
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:31 - Feb 27 with 1717 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:15 - Feb 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
I literally just highlighted the players he’d been able to bring in
What budget do you think the average League One side has? |
OK... let me break it down for you as it's your opinion that Lambert was handed a decent transfer kitty.
The players you mentioned: -
Thomas Holy - Free Transfer
Will Keane - Free Transfer
James Norwood - Free Transfer
James Wilson - Free Transfer
Luke Garbutt - Loan
Will Norris - Loan
KVY - £630K
Your point was...??? | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:35 - Feb 27 with 1711 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:31 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
OK... let me break it down for you as it's your opinion that Lambert was handed a decent transfer kitty.
The players you mentioned: -
Thomas Holy - Free Transfer
Will Keane - Free Transfer
James Norwood - Free Transfer
James Wilson - Free Transfer
Luke Garbutt - Loan
Will Norris - Loan
KVY - £630K
Your point was...??? |
That those players, with the exception of Wilson who I didn’t mention, will be on expensive wages in comparison to our League One peers, quite obviously
Also please feel free to name the League One sides that have spent more than the amount listed below. It will be a short list [Post edited 27 Feb 2020 13:48]
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:38 - Feb 27 with 1701 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:13 - Feb 27 by JDB23 |
Eh? You gave your definition of current as "Since Lambert has been appointed". None of those things you mention have been done by Marcus Evans since the appointment of Lambert. |
You asked for clarification on my original query... I gave it to you.
You gave your opinion back with NO clarification or justification, which was fine.
Marcus Evans policy never changes... it's been a debacle from day one.
The conversation marches on and other points get raised, which get discussed. End of.
I won't be playing "Susie Dent" any more... if you want to learn the definition of any other words I use, you can look them up yourself in a copy of the OED. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:41 - Feb 27 with 1691 views | No9 |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:26 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
If Lambert is the only reason we won't get promoted from League 1, who could do a job and get us back up to The Championship with little or no investment? |
More like, which genius could persuade the likes of; Sala, De Bruyne, Vardy, et al to come & play for ITFC for a fraction of their normal wage.
It is what it is season after season of telling very ordinary players they are the Dog's B's has come home to roost.
New scouts before a new manager BUT that should just be the start | | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:50 - Feb 27 with 1670 views | SouperJim |
There's been much revisionism on here of late about Lambert, the squad etc but my 2p:-
Evans is ultimately responsibly for everything which happens at the club. I can't fault his investment, but I certainly question his competence at running a football club effectively. He's been a disaster.
In terms of managers, I make Lambert about 33% responsible for our relegation. I was willing to forgive his part in it, he was dealt a bad hand and there were things to be genuinely positive about under his management which I think are overlooked by those who use the lazy "PR Paul" label, but the way he has made a mess of this season is classic banter era.
This squad is easily good enough to compete for automatic promotion. Play-offs should be a minimum. At the moment, we don't look like even delivering that. That doesn't mean we should have walked the division, but Lambert is completely responsible, the players are good enough but there is a real lack of self belief and mental resilience. As soon as the going gets tough, we fall apart. We have no plan B tactically and resort to hoof whenever we're under pressure despite being so poorly equipped to do it effectively. Lastly Lambert seems completely incapable of affecting the outcome of a game through a tactical switch or substitution. His changes are either like for like or involve moving players totally out of position and either way, they are always made far too late to have any real impact.
Nobody said it was going to be easy and perhaps our good start gave Lambert, the players and us fans and inflated sense of where we were at. But regardless, to throw our season away from a position of strength like he has is unforgivable. If we don't make the play-offs, my patience with Lambert will run out. [Post edited 27 Feb 2020 13:54]
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:53 - Feb 27 with 1661 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:17 - Feb 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
LOL
This one really isn’t difficult. Since Evans came in we’ve gone from being an upper half Championship side with aspirations of promotion to the PL to and upper half League One side with aspirations of promotion to the Championship. That general regression is on Evans - both in terms of funding and decision making
However this season we are performing particularly poorly compared to where our budget and playing squad should be - that is squarely on Lambert |
I appreciate the view you've shared, especially as you put it so well.
If only others could find it within themselves to do the same.
However, I don't believe the investment we needed was forthcoming. We were always going to have to cope with injuries to key playing staff and the reality is, we have insufficient cover of a level needed to compete. IF all our main squad players had remained fit, I think we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I know Paul Lambert is not the Messiah... I never thought he was the answer to our managerial prayers but he seems to be a likeable guy trying to do the best with what he's got... which ain't a lot at this point in time. Marcus Evans, it seems, does all the transfer dealings himself or has some other watertight lackey do it for him, so Lambert has little or no chance of securing the services of players he'd like to work with.
Maybe Marcus Evans' next investment should be in a crystal ball so he can allocate enough funds for next season to keep us competitive full term? | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:56 - Feb 27 with 1650 views | BigManBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:53 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
I appreciate the view you've shared, especially as you put it so well.
If only others could find it within themselves to do the same.
However, I don't believe the investment we needed was forthcoming. We were always going to have to cope with injuries to key playing staff and the reality is, we have insufficient cover of a level needed to compete. IF all our main squad players had remained fit, I think we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I know Paul Lambert is not the Messiah... I never thought he was the answer to our managerial prayers but he seems to be a likeable guy trying to do the best with what he's got... which ain't a lot at this point in time. Marcus Evans, it seems, does all the transfer dealings himself or has some other watertight lackey do it for him, so Lambert has little or no chance of securing the services of players he'd like to work with.
Maybe Marcus Evans' next investment should be in a crystal ball so he can allocate enough funds for next season to keep us competitive full term? |
Whaaaaaat? Our squad is ginormous for this level, we even have multiple players for positions we barely ever utilise. It's unbalanced, sure, (ever since the summer I've felt we were light in central defence) but a lot of that seemingly came down to not having a well defined system in place to recruit for.
I do agree that a lot of the squad isn't of a massively high standard but still probably on par with the other teams in and around the promotion mix. |  |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:57 - Feb 27 with 1647 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:21 - Feb 27 by No9 |
The decline is long term.
Only one season since Mr E acquired ITFC has been less than mediocre.
Mr E must shoulder the responsibility for that but I do believe having a good football man by his side would have helped his investment |
Thanks for your opinion.
Yes, I do believe you are correct.
Marcus Evans has been a disastrous owner from day 1.
Apparently, didn't his mate good ol' Harry Redknapp give him the benefit of his advice once or twice... or was it Sandra Redknapp? | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 14:01 - Feb 27 with 1634 views | SouperJim |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:57 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
Thanks for your opinion.
Yes, I do believe you are correct.
Marcus Evans has been a disastrous owner from day 1.
Apparently, didn't his mate good ol' Harry Redknapp give him the benefit of his advice once or twice... or was it Sandra Redknapp? |
Lambert could be moved upstairs as a director. He clearly can see what is wrong with the club and has done lots to improve us off the pitch, and I think it is this (upturn in ticket sales, improvement in supporter mood, community re-engagement etc) which convinced Evans to give him a longer deal, to continue the work of repairing the club. But our performance on the pitch has left a lot to be desired. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 14:08 - Feb 27 with 1632 views | Darth_Koont |
Lambert and ME could have done a lot of things better and detailed criticism is often very valid.
But having said that, I think there's a general context that's often overlooked:
- Momentum and confidence. These have been ebbing away from the club and the supporters for almost 2 decades. That's hard to turn around without real success e.g. a promotion season. ME more than Lambert bears some responsibility here but even then the downward slide was something he largely inherited.
- Timing. Rather than doing the wrong things consistently, we've often done quite a lot of the right things. But too many at the wrong time. For example we've given the wrong managers money and we've too often invested in short-term and changing goals rather than a long-term approach. We also seem to undervalue our own home-grown players during these splurges that puts their long-term development and value on the back-burner. Then when we were promoting these youngsters and the academy during Mick's last few years the approach was jeopardised by us not having much to play with when we needed a little experience and proven quality added into the mix. Finding that balance and making sure you're consistently doing the right things at the right time seems vital. You would hope that someone like O'Neill is specifically here to make sure of that but everybody needs to be on the same page from the owner, to the manager, the players and the fans.
- The competition. During this period of us traveling in the wrong direction and often looking for quick-fixes to reverse that, other clubs are a lot more flexible and upwardly mobile, or in some cases have much deeper pockets as the battle has intensified. Instinctively, I don't want us to throw money at it as I tend to think that type of success just isn't worth caring about and I'd just as soon not bother. But I think we at least need to recognise that we're up against it when we look around. If we don't have lots of extra money then we need to be serious about what we do spend money on and we also need a lot more patience. And we should probably focus on the academy and U23s more than we do already - certainly in terms of building first teams for the seasons to come rather than turning to these players just to fill gaps and hoping they work out. We have a number of players like Dozzell, Nydam, Dobra, El Mizouni, Morris and Folami who have been introduced oddly and discarded for more experienced players who don't appear to be that much better. Other clubs even at a much higher level just seem to make better use of their 18-21 year-old players than we have over the last couple of years.
There don't appear to be any easy answers here. But recognising that is the most important step of all. Maybe then we will be more happy looking at the marginal gains that will eventually lead to real and lasting success, rather than looking for and demanding quick success and results that invariably fade away and leave us even further back. |  |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 14:14 - Feb 27 with 1619 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:22 - Feb 27 by Sikamikanico |
Its always a benefit to have one of your businesses lose money so you can reclaim 19p for every £1 you lose....
He came in to get the club promoted to the premier league and then benefit from the rise in income.
He hired Roy Keane who should have been a good choice as he had got Sunderland promoted. Keane F'd it up while wasting a vast amount of money.
Jewell was also a failure.
McCarthy came in and did well on a tight budget. A tight budget that kept us in mid table but still meant losing money each year.
I am in no way extolling the virtues of Marcus Evans. However there comes a time when you have to stop giving handouts to the problem child |
True... there isn't an endless pot of cash but, to live up to his well verbalised 5 year plan to get us promoted back to the Prem (which he trots out each season) seems to be nothing more than pie in the sky when you look at his investment policy.
If only we had a rich Russian benefactor, Arab Sheik or American mogul waiting in the wings who wasn't afraid to really invest.
Perhaps Marcus should cut his and our losses and stick us up on Ebay and see what transpires? | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 14:15 - Feb 27 with 1610 views | Sikamikanico |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 14:14 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
True... there isn't an endless pot of cash but, to live up to his well verbalised 5 year plan to get us promoted back to the Prem (which he trots out each season) seems to be nothing more than pie in the sky when you look at his investment policy.
If only we had a rich Russian benefactor, Arab Sheik or American mogul waiting in the wings who wasn't afraid to really invest.
Perhaps Marcus should cut his and our losses and stick us up on Ebay and see what transpires? |
FFP ties any owners hands. We don't even own the land the stadium is on to try and sell it to Marcus | | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 14:41 - Feb 27 with 1597 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 14:08 - Feb 27 by Darth_Koont |
Lambert and ME could have done a lot of things better and detailed criticism is often very valid.
But having said that, I think there's a general context that's often overlooked:
- Momentum and confidence. These have been ebbing away from the club and the supporters for almost 2 decades. That's hard to turn around without real success e.g. a promotion season. ME more than Lambert bears some responsibility here but even then the downward slide was something he largely inherited.
- Timing. Rather than doing the wrong things consistently, we've often done quite a lot of the right things. But too many at the wrong time. For example we've given the wrong managers money and we've too often invested in short-term and changing goals rather than a long-term approach. We also seem to undervalue our own home-grown players during these splurges that puts their long-term development and value on the back-burner. Then when we were promoting these youngsters and the academy during Mick's last few years the approach was jeopardised by us not having much to play with when we needed a little experience and proven quality added into the mix. Finding that balance and making sure you're consistently doing the right things at the right time seems vital. You would hope that someone like O'Neill is specifically here to make sure of that but everybody needs to be on the same page from the owner, to the manager, the players and the fans.
- The competition. During this period of us traveling in the wrong direction and often looking for quick-fixes to reverse that, other clubs are a lot more flexible and upwardly mobile, or in some cases have much deeper pockets as the battle has intensified. Instinctively, I don't want us to throw money at it as I tend to think that type of success just isn't worth caring about and I'd just as soon not bother. But I think we at least need to recognise that we're up against it when we look around. If we don't have lots of extra money then we need to be serious about what we do spend money on and we also need a lot more patience. And we should probably focus on the academy and U23s more than we do already - certainly in terms of building first teams for the seasons to come rather than turning to these players just to fill gaps and hoping they work out. We have a number of players like Dozzell, Nydam, Dobra, El Mizouni, Morris and Folami who have been introduced oddly and discarded for more experienced players who don't appear to be that much better. Other clubs even at a much higher level just seem to make better use of their 18-21 year-old players than we have over the last couple of years.
There don't appear to be any easy answers here. But recognising that is the most important step of all. Maybe then we will be more happy looking at the marginal gains that will eventually lead to real and lasting success, rather than looking for and demanding quick success and results that invariably fade away and leave us even further back. |
Well put.
Things have been awry with our club for a long time but certainly got a lot worse when Marcus Evans took charge.
His appointment of Roy Keane, for me, was one of the darkest days in our recent history. I never liked or trusted the bloke. Seriously underwhelming stats as ITFC manager and not a nice guy.
Paul Jewell... seemed like a decent chap but not a great manager. Lost more than he won.
McCarthy... Big head, big mouth... did OK to start with but toed the company line whilst not setting the world alight. Lost the fans through his arrogance. Stats nothing to write home about whilst serving up mediocre hoofball week in, week out. Dwindling gates. Had to go.
Hurst... Way, way, way out of his depth... complete and utter shambles!
Paul Lambert... Seemingly another nice guy but his stats are also well below par.
It seems to me that, either ALL of these managers appointed by Evans are average or below or they are not being given the ammunition to have a real go at promotion.
Let's hope the kids coming through are good enough, don't get sold for a handful of magic beans and can take us onwards and upwards... I fear that's our only hope going forwards. | |
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