| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) 22:22 - Sep 1 with 18751 views | Smithy |
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| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 13:05 - Sep 3 with 3024 views | Churchman |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 10:26 - Sep 3 by tractorboy1978 |
Also, any idea that Ashton has complete control here is nonsense. That very likely was the case at Bristol City where Lansdown was even more absent than Evans and by all accounts more interested in the rugby team. Here, he has O'Leary in the building as a steadying hand and it's clear that the American owners/investors, whilst not physically here are very, very involved and monitoring everything closely.
He may well have made mistakes at Bristol City but we can only judge on what he does here and so far it's been overwhelmingly positive. |
You are right. He is a paid employee. He is highly paid to deliver xyz. He won’t last if he doesn’t do just that. I don’t know what his remit was at BC or who was accountable for what, but sounds on the face of it all sounds a bit of an odd set up. I’d actually be very interested to know how football clubs operate and the variances between them. Some are clearly better than others as we well know marooned in League One..
Joe makes an excellent point about getting decisions right and wrong. Basically if you get 90% right you are doing very well. Ashton is bound to make mistakes. It’s how many and how he responds when he does, in addition to not repeating errors he’s undoubtably made in the past. |  | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 16:10 - Sep 3 with 2861 views | doodah |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 09:06 - Sep 3 by Metal_Hacker |
Maybe I'm missing something here as I've not taken the time to read the whole thread BUT are we looking for things that aren't there as yet ?
Are we judging MA on evidence that might be there at other clubs but not at ours ?
Are we looking for issues and problems that at present don't really exist ?
Are we still waiting for our first win ?
Worry about the here and now and not what MIGHT happen !!
Enjoy it for what it is now.... |
some truth in what you say here, but perhaps you're being just a little too open-minded. What concerns me most is that we lack a clear longer-term strategy to push for a top end championship challenge. We've brought in 19 players, the vast majority of whom are destined to be with us for the next three years at least. Yet an honest assessment would suggest none of them (with perhaps a couple of borderline cases) are better than lower half champs/upper half league one in quality, and I don't see any of them looking that likely to improve significantly beyond that level. There's a real danger that we are far more likely to become the next Rotherham rather than the next Brentford.
The current level of recruitment really should secure promotion this season, and we are right to be thankful for the work done to put us in that position. However, I just don't see any real evidence that there is a current plan about how we signficantly develop beyond that short-term aim. Of course that is by necessity speculation, but it is speculation based on current evidence. I hope I'm entirely wrong and someone will come along here and explain what I've missed. |  | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 16:24 - Sep 3 with 2831 views | Metal_Hacker |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 16:10 - Sep 3 by doodah |
some truth in what you say here, but perhaps you're being just a little too open-minded. What concerns me most is that we lack a clear longer-term strategy to push for a top end championship challenge. We've brought in 19 players, the vast majority of whom are destined to be with us for the next three years at least. Yet an honest assessment would suggest none of them (with perhaps a couple of borderline cases) are better than lower half champs/upper half league one in quality, and I don't see any of them looking that likely to improve significantly beyond that level. There's a real danger that we are far more likely to become the next Rotherham rather than the next Brentford.
The current level of recruitment really should secure promotion this season, and we are right to be thankful for the work done to put us in that position. However, I just don't see any real evidence that there is a current plan about how we signficantly develop beyond that short-term aim. Of course that is by necessity speculation, but it is speculation based on current evidence. I hope I'm entirely wrong and someone will come along here and explain what I've missed. |
I think it's a case of "bite size" chunks - to expect a better calibre of player than what we have achieved over the summer is slightly out of our reach as we find ourselves in League 1 surely ?
I see your point as to a long term strategy but we're aiming from a very low point as we sit right now and come December if we're looking like pushing for promotion perhaps there might be some wiggle room for those players you have in mind but for now I can't see how the transfer window with the guidance of MA could've been much better.
To say none of them are better than lower champ / upper league one is probably a fair assessment BUT what would you have expected ? Pretty sure the majority of League 1 managers would welcome perhaps 18-20 of our first team with open arms
We have to be realistic no ? |  |
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| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 11:07 - Sep 5 with 2543 views | doodah |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 16:24 - Sep 3 by Metal_Hacker |
I think it's a case of "bite size" chunks - to expect a better calibre of player than what we have achieved over the summer is slightly out of our reach as we find ourselves in League 1 surely ?
I see your point as to a long term strategy but we're aiming from a very low point as we sit right now and come December if we're looking like pushing for promotion perhaps there might be some wiggle room for those players you have in mind but for now I can't see how the transfer window with the guidance of MA could've been much better.
To say none of them are better than lower champ / upper league one is probably a fair assessment BUT what would you have expected ? Pretty sure the majority of League 1 managers would welcome perhaps 18-20 of our first team with open arms
We have to be realistic no ? |
Cheers MH! I'm used to getting hostile responses to my "realistic" take on the club's situation, so I appreciate your considered response.
I actually agree with everything you say. It would indeed be foolish to think we could have recruited a better calibre of player in this window (indeed I'm very pleasantly surprised we have managed to attract some of the ones we did (Morsy for example)).
I think my real worry is that having recruited 19 players in one go it is pretty clear that they will form the majority of the squad for several seasons to come, and they do all look like bottom half champ/top league 1 level players. It's becoming clearer with every passing season that to stand a chance of moving into a position to challenge for promotion from the champs requires the acquisition and/or retention of multi-million pound players that make up the bulk of teams who are serious contenders in that league. The nub of my concern is that I don't detect (as of yet) any evidence of a strategy regarding how we might acquire such players in the future. I would have loved to have seen a top to bottom rethinking of all aspects of the club with an emphasis on vastly improved scouting networks, and a category 1 youth policy. Like it or not, that's how the lot up the road managed to transform their position and I see no reason at all why a similar strategy wouldn't work for us. Indeed, I think it is the only realistic strategy that might achieve our ultimate ambition to rejoin the PL. Gamechanger is not going to be stumping up for several £5m+ players when we make it to the champs, so how else are we going to acquire the players we will need to compete in the champs?
It may be that my "realism" tends towards the negative, but while I welcome the departure of Evans and the squad development this year, it does strike me as a very short-term approach. It looks like someone has said, "Let's make sure we get promotion this year then worry about the future once we're in the champs". That is a bit too Rotherham for my liking. I would very much welcome somone to show me why my take on the current issues is wrong, but other than a load of abuse about me being a closet budgie I have yet to see anybody say anything rational in response to my worries. | | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 11:15 - Sep 5 with 2527 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 11:07 - Sep 5 by doodah |
Cheers MH! I'm used to getting hostile responses to my "realistic" take on the club's situation, so I appreciate your considered response.
I actually agree with everything you say. It would indeed be foolish to think we could have recruited a better calibre of player in this window (indeed I'm very pleasantly surprised we have managed to attract some of the ones we did (Morsy for example)).
I think my real worry is that having recruited 19 players in one go it is pretty clear that they will form the majority of the squad for several seasons to come, and they do all look like bottom half champ/top league 1 level players. It's becoming clearer with every passing season that to stand a chance of moving into a position to challenge for promotion from the champs requires the acquisition and/or retention of multi-million pound players that make up the bulk of teams who are serious contenders in that league. The nub of my concern is that I don't detect (as of yet) any evidence of a strategy regarding how we might acquire such players in the future. I would have loved to have seen a top to bottom rethinking of all aspects of the club with an emphasis on vastly improved scouting networks, and a category 1 youth policy. Like it or not, that's how the lot up the road managed to transform their position and I see no reason at all why a similar strategy wouldn't work for us. Indeed, I think it is the only realistic strategy that might achieve our ultimate ambition to rejoin the PL. Gamechanger is not going to be stumping up for several £5m+ players when we make it to the champs, so how else are we going to acquire the players we will need to compete in the champs?
It may be that my "realism" tends towards the negative, but while I welcome the departure of Evans and the squad development this year, it does strike me as a very short-term approach. It looks like someone has said, "Let's make sure we get promotion this year then worry about the future once we're in the champs". That is a bit too Rotherham for my liking. I would very much welcome somone to show me why my take on the current issues is wrong, but other than a load of abuse about me being a closet budgie I have yet to see anybody say anything rational in response to my worries. |
I'm not sure how you can write off the players we've signed as not being good enough to be solid Championship players when:
a) Half of them were wanted by Championship clubs
b) Most of them are under 27 with their prime about to or still to come
Ashton has already talked about bringing in a recruitment team. It's going to be incremental steps but the owners have shown that they will spend money and once we get to the Championship it wouldn't surprise me at all if our transfer record is broken fairly quickly. | | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 21:15 - Sep 5 with 2442 views | Bluedicea |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 11:07 - Sep 5 by doodah |
Cheers MH! I'm used to getting hostile responses to my "realistic" take on the club's situation, so I appreciate your considered response.
I actually agree with everything you say. It would indeed be foolish to think we could have recruited a better calibre of player in this window (indeed I'm very pleasantly surprised we have managed to attract some of the ones we did (Morsy for example)).
I think my real worry is that having recruited 19 players in one go it is pretty clear that they will form the majority of the squad for several seasons to come, and they do all look like bottom half champ/top league 1 level players. It's becoming clearer with every passing season that to stand a chance of moving into a position to challenge for promotion from the champs requires the acquisition and/or retention of multi-million pound players that make up the bulk of teams who are serious contenders in that league. The nub of my concern is that I don't detect (as of yet) any evidence of a strategy regarding how we might acquire such players in the future. I would have loved to have seen a top to bottom rethinking of all aspects of the club with an emphasis on vastly improved scouting networks, and a category 1 youth policy. Like it or not, that's how the lot up the road managed to transform their position and I see no reason at all why a similar strategy wouldn't work for us. Indeed, I think it is the only realistic strategy that might achieve our ultimate ambition to rejoin the PL. Gamechanger is not going to be stumping up for several £5m+ players when we make it to the champs, so how else are we going to acquire the players we will need to compete in the champs?
It may be that my "realism" tends towards the negative, but while I welcome the departure of Evans and the squad development this year, it does strike me as a very short-term approach. It looks like someone has said, "Let's make sure we get promotion this year then worry about the future once we're in the champs". That is a bit too Rotherham for my liking. I would very much welcome somone to show me why my take on the current issues is wrong, but other than a load of abuse about me being a closet budgie I have yet to see anybody say anything rational in response to my worries. |
While it hasn't been specifically stated, they have mentioned the length of time a few times using the word over several years.
So taking that literally, just for ease of calculations. They are planning an initial 7 year run, one assumes that will be constantly updated depending on results performance etc.
The initial investment is to reach the Championship, for that they are allocating 2 years, with the hope that is achieved in season 1, but understanding it may take 2 seasons.
The next part of the project comes when they achieve promotion, where depending on the year and method of promotion, the plan will be to replace half the team, those not performing to a standard, this is most likely to be an aim to avoid relegation, not necessarily to compete for promotion. Solid mid table Championship players with maybe a few PL rejects and top championship players.
Years 2(3) to 5 are all about this, solidifying a place in the championship, avoiding relegation and pushing the top half of the table.
Years 6 and 7 will be when they most likely consider the viability of the project. If we are pushing for a playoff place, they will probably provide a large investment to achieve promotion, if we are struggling they will look to see the sustainability of the project.
During all this time they will also be trying to improve the Academy, so as to get some decent players, but also to provide a reasonably stable income source
It's about selling the dream to players, we are funded from a 9billion dollar portfolio, we are looking to push for playing at the top of the pyramid, either join us on the super jet, or tell us your taking the bus with some old has beens and we'll sign one of the other players were talking to.
Obviously this is my speculation on what I've heard from Gamechanger, they don't come across as throw everything at it with hope, more a steady continued progress approach. Too many times you see owners throw money away for instant success and then become lost and bored when it fails, whereas these guys are aware of the pitfalls so have accounted for it in their planning.
It might not work out, but it's better than the Evan's era which was just about keeping us on life support, not improving and overcoming the situation we had found ourselves in |  |
| What is the use of knowing about everything else, when you do not yet know who you are. |
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| Ya daft budgie. (n/t) on 22:02 - Sep 5 with 2410 views | Bloots |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 11:07 - Sep 5 by doodah |
Cheers MH! I'm used to getting hostile responses to my "realistic" take on the club's situation, so I appreciate your considered response.
I actually agree with everything you say. It would indeed be foolish to think we could have recruited a better calibre of player in this window (indeed I'm very pleasantly surprised we have managed to attract some of the ones we did (Morsy for example)).
I think my real worry is that having recruited 19 players in one go it is pretty clear that they will form the majority of the squad for several seasons to come, and they do all look like bottom half champ/top league 1 level players. It's becoming clearer with every passing season that to stand a chance of moving into a position to challenge for promotion from the champs requires the acquisition and/or retention of multi-million pound players that make up the bulk of teams who are serious contenders in that league. The nub of my concern is that I don't detect (as of yet) any evidence of a strategy regarding how we might acquire such players in the future. I would have loved to have seen a top to bottom rethinking of all aspects of the club with an emphasis on vastly improved scouting networks, and a category 1 youth policy. Like it or not, that's how the lot up the road managed to transform their position and I see no reason at all why a similar strategy wouldn't work for us. Indeed, I think it is the only realistic strategy that might achieve our ultimate ambition to rejoin the PL. Gamechanger is not going to be stumping up for several £5m+ players when we make it to the champs, so how else are we going to acquire the players we will need to compete in the champs?
It may be that my "realism" tends towards the negative, but while I welcome the departure of Evans and the squad development this year, it does strike me as a very short-term approach. It looks like someone has said, "Let's make sure we get promotion this year then worry about the future once we're in the champs". That is a bit too Rotherham for my liking. I would very much welcome somone to show me why my take on the current issues is wrong, but other than a load of abuse about me being a closet budgie I have yet to see anybody say anything rational in response to my worries. |
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| TWTD Leadership Group/Elite Level Supporter/Anti-Bullying Crusader |
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| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 22:17 - Sep 5 with 2379 views | chrismakin |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 11:07 - Sep 5 by doodah |
Cheers MH! I'm used to getting hostile responses to my "realistic" take on the club's situation, so I appreciate your considered response.
I actually agree with everything you say. It would indeed be foolish to think we could have recruited a better calibre of player in this window (indeed I'm very pleasantly surprised we have managed to attract some of the ones we did (Morsy for example)).
I think my real worry is that having recruited 19 players in one go it is pretty clear that they will form the majority of the squad for several seasons to come, and they do all look like bottom half champ/top league 1 level players. It's becoming clearer with every passing season that to stand a chance of moving into a position to challenge for promotion from the champs requires the acquisition and/or retention of multi-million pound players that make up the bulk of teams who are serious contenders in that league. The nub of my concern is that I don't detect (as of yet) any evidence of a strategy regarding how we might acquire such players in the future. I would have loved to have seen a top to bottom rethinking of all aspects of the club with an emphasis on vastly improved scouting networks, and a category 1 youth policy. Like it or not, that's how the lot up the road managed to transform their position and I see no reason at all why a similar strategy wouldn't work for us. Indeed, I think it is the only realistic strategy that might achieve our ultimate ambition to rejoin the PL. Gamechanger is not going to be stumping up for several £5m+ players when we make it to the champs, so how else are we going to acquire the players we will need to compete in the champs?
It may be that my "realism" tends towards the negative, but while I welcome the departure of Evans and the squad development this year, it does strike me as a very short-term approach. It looks like someone has said, "Let's make sure we get promotion this year then worry about the future once we're in the champs". That is a bit too Rotherham for my liking. I would very much welcome somone to show me why my take on the current issues is wrong, but other than a load of abuse about me being a closet budgie I have yet to see anybody say anything rational in response to my worries. |
What makes you think Gamechanger wont be looking to get certain calibre of players in the champ.
The way they run their clubs is a list of investors. Look at Phoenix and you'll see how many are involved in that project. |  |
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| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 22:52 - Sep 5 with 2371 views | HARRY10 |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 11:07 - Sep 5 by doodah |
Cheers MH! I'm used to getting hostile responses to my "realistic" take on the club's situation, so I appreciate your considered response.
I actually agree with everything you say. It would indeed be foolish to think we could have recruited a better calibre of player in this window (indeed I'm very pleasantly surprised we have managed to attract some of the ones we did (Morsy for example)).
I think my real worry is that having recruited 19 players in one go it is pretty clear that they will form the majority of the squad for several seasons to come, and they do all look like bottom half champ/top league 1 level players. It's becoming clearer with every passing season that to stand a chance of moving into a position to challenge for promotion from the champs requires the acquisition and/or retention of multi-million pound players that make up the bulk of teams who are serious contenders in that league. The nub of my concern is that I don't detect (as of yet) any evidence of a strategy regarding how we might acquire such players in the future. I would have loved to have seen a top to bottom rethinking of all aspects of the club with an emphasis on vastly improved scouting networks, and a category 1 youth policy. Like it or not, that's how the lot up the road managed to transform their position and I see no reason at all why a similar strategy wouldn't work for us. Indeed, I think it is the only realistic strategy that might achieve our ultimate ambition to rejoin the PL. Gamechanger is not going to be stumping up for several £5m+ players when we make it to the champs, so how else are we going to acquire the players we will need to compete in the champs?
It may be that my "realism" tends towards the negative, but while I welcome the departure of Evans and the squad development this year, it does strike me as a very short-term approach. It looks like someone has said, "Let's make sure we get promotion this year then worry about the future once we're in the champs". That is a bit too Rotherham for my liking. I would very much welcome somone to show me why my take on the current issues is wrong, but other than a load of abuse about me being a closet budgie I have yet to see anybody say anything rational in response to my worries. |
I'm not sure if many will welcome your comments on the Emperors new clothes.
For them the reality is that the pension fund has $13bn (?) ready and waiting to be handed over. Not loaned, certainly not. And once we reach the PL they will reap the financial rewards, in abundance.....just as every other club who gets promoted does. Hand over millions to those who funded their way to the PL - I think Jehovahs Witnesses peddle a variation of that.
Cynics might, however, suggest that the way to meet interest payments would be through trading players. Instant return. As with ,say, Adam Webster. Though I am not certain we have anyone at the club who could fix up those sort of deals.
Unfortunately I am not aware of any owner who has got their club into the PL then was able to get loaned money back, never mind with interest on top. Nor have I seen the millions needed generated from increased bar/ticket sale, or other commercial uses of the ground. Though I am sure there are umpteen examples of Championship clubs making huge sums of money each season that would easily meet annual interest payments. Whereas we actually made a loss year in year out, despite income from player sales.
Assuming that the idea is NOT to sell players then it has to be asked how much would be needed to assemble a squad and to then challenge (and achieve) promotion - given that those promoted to the PL have recently been in the main established Championship clubs or those still with part PL squads.
The question for us is not so much if, but when. Under what timescale will it take. Far longer than many on here imagine, I fear. | | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 23:21 - Sep 5 with 2347 views | shamboy |
The more I look at it, the more I believe that Gamechangers will have promised their investors a return on their investment within a mid-range period of 5 years.
It's not impossible, but realistically it must be projected on the basis of the development and sale of players. How compatible is that with talk of promotion to the Premier League? | | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 13:25 - Sep 9 with 2066 views | FevsBCFC |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 22:52 - Sep 5 by HARRY10 |
I'm not sure if many will welcome your comments on the Emperors new clothes.
For them the reality is that the pension fund has $13bn (?) ready and waiting to be handed over. Not loaned, certainly not. And once we reach the PL they will reap the financial rewards, in abundance.....just as every other club who gets promoted does. Hand over millions to those who funded their way to the PL - I think Jehovahs Witnesses peddle a variation of that.
Cynics might, however, suggest that the way to meet interest payments would be through trading players. Instant return. As with ,say, Adam Webster. Though I am not certain we have anyone at the club who could fix up those sort of deals.
Unfortunately I am not aware of any owner who has got their club into the PL then was able to get loaned money back, never mind with interest on top. Nor have I seen the millions needed generated from increased bar/ticket sale, or other commercial uses of the ground. Though I am sure there are umpteen examples of Championship clubs making huge sums of money each season that would easily meet annual interest payments. Whereas we actually made a loss year in year out, despite income from player sales.
Assuming that the idea is NOT to sell players then it has to be asked how much would be needed to assemble a squad and to then challenge (and achieve) promotion - given that those promoted to the PL have recently been in the main established Championship clubs or those still with part PL squads.
The question for us is not so much if, but when. Under what timescale will it take. Far longer than many on here imagine, I fear. |
Just popping back in. The problem once you get to the Championship is that Ganechangerks pension pot can be as big as it likes….you can’t just buy success. Owners are only allowed to cover losses, not bung money in. The Financial Fair Play - SCMP rules in Lg1 / Lg2 are very different to P&S in the Championship. I don’t agree with them, but that’s the rules. Otherwise our own Steve Lansdown would be investing his own personal wealth into the club, rather than just covering losses.
Whatever plan you have will need to consider the increased costs of being in the Championship (that’s no surprise). Over the last 4 years Acoounts of Ashton’s tenure starting from the end of our first season back up, the income and costs were as follows:
15/16 income: £14.2m Costs £26.2m Losses overall inc Transfers £14.4m (we lost money on players)
19/20 Income: £27.9m Costs £62.6m Losses overall inc Transfers £9.1m (luckily we made £25.6m on player sakes or we’d have lost £34m!!)
Ashton increased the cost base by 134%….wages were twice the amount, amortisation 5-fold increase, other costs more than doubled.
Your McCarthy era of free transfer signings kept your heads above water in many respects.
It is gonna be very interesting to see how you can attract quality players in the Champ without costs spiralling. It will be equally interesting to see how you retain your better players from the bigger clubs. Even we had to sell Webster. And more interesting will be the players signed this window on 3 year deals who fall by the wayside and leave you unable to move on because they are on wages bigger than other clubs will pay., especially with promotion wage increases….when you inevitably go up.
It feels great at the moment, bar results, which will turn around I’m sure….but once you get promoted it’s gonna be really tough to continue momentum. |  | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 16:52 - Sep 9 with 1986 views | Steve_M |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 13:25 - Sep 9 by FevsBCFC |
Just popping back in. The problem once you get to the Championship is that Ganechangerks pension pot can be as big as it likes….you can’t just buy success. Owners are only allowed to cover losses, not bung money in. The Financial Fair Play - SCMP rules in Lg1 / Lg2 are very different to P&S in the Championship. I don’t agree with them, but that’s the rules. Otherwise our own Steve Lansdown would be investing his own personal wealth into the club, rather than just covering losses.
Whatever plan you have will need to consider the increased costs of being in the Championship (that’s no surprise). Over the last 4 years Acoounts of Ashton’s tenure starting from the end of our first season back up, the income and costs were as follows:
15/16 income: £14.2m Costs £26.2m Losses overall inc Transfers £14.4m (we lost money on players)
19/20 Income: £27.9m Costs £62.6m Losses overall inc Transfers £9.1m (luckily we made £25.6m on player sakes or we’d have lost £34m!!)
Ashton increased the cost base by 134%….wages were twice the amount, amortisation 5-fold increase, other costs more than doubled.
Your McCarthy era of free transfer signings kept your heads above water in many respects.
It is gonna be very interesting to see how you can attract quality players in the Champ without costs spiralling. It will be equally interesting to see how you retain your better players from the bigger clubs. Even we had to sell Webster. And more interesting will be the players signed this window on 3 year deals who fall by the wayside and leave you unable to move on because they are on wages bigger than other clubs will pay., especially with promotion wage increases….when you inevitably go up.
It feels great at the moment, bar results, which will turn around I’m sure….but once you get promoted it’s gonna be really tough to continue momentum. |
Yes, agree with much of that. I suppose though that the alternative for us was getting back into the Championship under Evans and struggling to stay there - Wigan, pre-collapse and most recent takeover, are an exemplar here and it's still less than a decade since they were in the Premier League.
The Championship remains a ridiculous league, dominated by parachute payments and overspending but it's probably a better challenge trying to prosper there than muddling about between the bottom six and top six of the third division.
We've had 13 years of watching our club do next to nothing that is smart, most of us still remember the late 90s when we were a positive model for other medium-sized clubs.
Compared to that Ashton not getting everything right still counts as a big improvement. Hopefully the last month has disabused some of our more excitable fans that just having money and buying players does not, in itself, make a successful team. |  |
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| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 17:08 - Sep 9 with 1957 views | jayessess |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 13:25 - Sep 9 by FevsBCFC |
Just popping back in. The problem once you get to the Championship is that Ganechangerks pension pot can be as big as it likes….you can’t just buy success. Owners are only allowed to cover losses, not bung money in. The Financial Fair Play - SCMP rules in Lg1 / Lg2 are very different to P&S in the Championship. I don’t agree with them, but that’s the rules. Otherwise our own Steve Lansdown would be investing his own personal wealth into the club, rather than just covering losses.
Whatever plan you have will need to consider the increased costs of being in the Championship (that’s no surprise). Over the last 4 years Acoounts of Ashton’s tenure starting from the end of our first season back up, the income and costs were as follows:
15/16 income: £14.2m Costs £26.2m Losses overall inc Transfers £14.4m (we lost money on players)
19/20 Income: £27.9m Costs £62.6m Losses overall inc Transfers £9.1m (luckily we made £25.6m on player sakes or we’d have lost £34m!!)
Ashton increased the cost base by 134%….wages were twice the amount, amortisation 5-fold increase, other costs more than doubled.
Your McCarthy era of free transfer signings kept your heads above water in many respects.
It is gonna be very interesting to see how you can attract quality players in the Champ without costs spiralling. It will be equally interesting to see how you retain your better players from the bigger clubs. Even we had to sell Webster. And more interesting will be the players signed this window on 3 year deals who fall by the wayside and leave you unable to move on because they are on wages bigger than other clubs will pay., especially with promotion wage increases….when you inevitably go up.
It feels great at the moment, bar results, which will turn around I’m sure….but once you get promoted it’s gonna be really tough to continue momentum. |
I suppose the hope is that you take your spending as close to the maximum as possible and put yourself in with a shot of being one of the handful of very well-run/well-managed, non-parachute-payment clubs that force their way into promotion contention each year.
Massive long shot though, obviously. |  |
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| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 23:30 - Sep 9 with 1852 views | FevsBCFC |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 17:08 - Sep 9 by jayessess |
I suppose the hope is that you take your spending as close to the maximum as possible and put yourself in with a shot of being one of the handful of very well-run/well-managed, non-parachute-payment clubs that force their way into promotion contention each year.
Massive long shot though, obviously. |
I think that is exactly what most fans thought we were becoming too, but my concerns going back as far as January 2018 were - at what point do the saleable assets dry up and therefore can’t prop up the growing cost base. It was a bit of a false Dawn, we only achieved top 8 once (8th), otherwise 11th, 12th! 17th and 18th….last season 19th.
When we sold Webster (minus your sell-on) and Lloyd Kelly we netted £25m in transfer profit….but we spunked £26m that same season on countless players, further increasing the wage bill and amortisation that is the millstone around Nigel Pearson’s neck 15 months after Johnson was sacked.
We let a £5.3m record signing at the time leave on a free transfer.
The model you talk about is definitely the right strategy, you got to recruit like Brentford though, not Bristol City! Or keep costs down like Millwall and Barnsley in the hope of getting a season where it all clicks.
Enjoy the ride. | | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 07:12 - Sep 10 with 1737 views | ITFCBlues |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 16:10 - Sep 3 by doodah |
some truth in what you say here, but perhaps you're being just a little too open-minded. What concerns me most is that we lack a clear longer-term strategy to push for a top end championship challenge. We've brought in 19 players, the vast majority of whom are destined to be with us for the next three years at least. Yet an honest assessment would suggest none of them (with perhaps a couple of borderline cases) are better than lower half champs/upper half league one in quality, and I don't see any of them looking that likely to improve significantly beyond that level. There's a real danger that we are far more likely to become the next Rotherham rather than the next Brentford.
The current level of recruitment really should secure promotion this season, and we are right to be thankful for the work done to put us in that position. However, I just don't see any real evidence that there is a current plan about how we signficantly develop beyond that short-term aim. Of course that is by necessity speculation, but it is speculation based on current evidence. I hope I'm entirely wrong and someone will come along here and explain what I've missed. |
I think it's completely unrealistic to expect us to sign real top end Championship players when sitting in L1. Why would they come here when they can be playing for a premiership spot for a Championship club?
Players can also develop given time and improve. The recruitment's been outstanding and if we do go up, you can then supplement with 2 or 3 higher end Championship players and build. Top end Championship players cost millions as well.
Let's just get out of L1 before worrying about the Championship! |  |
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| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 07:17 - Sep 10 with 1729 views | ITFCBlues |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 11:07 - Sep 5 by doodah |
Cheers MH! I'm used to getting hostile responses to my "realistic" take on the club's situation, so I appreciate your considered response.
I actually agree with everything you say. It would indeed be foolish to think we could have recruited a better calibre of player in this window (indeed I'm very pleasantly surprised we have managed to attract some of the ones we did (Morsy for example)).
I think my real worry is that having recruited 19 players in one go it is pretty clear that they will form the majority of the squad for several seasons to come, and they do all look like bottom half champ/top league 1 level players. It's becoming clearer with every passing season that to stand a chance of moving into a position to challenge for promotion from the champs requires the acquisition and/or retention of multi-million pound players that make up the bulk of teams who are serious contenders in that league. The nub of my concern is that I don't detect (as of yet) any evidence of a strategy regarding how we might acquire such players in the future. I would have loved to have seen a top to bottom rethinking of all aspects of the club with an emphasis on vastly improved scouting networks, and a category 1 youth policy. Like it or not, that's how the lot up the road managed to transform their position and I see no reason at all why a similar strategy wouldn't work for us. Indeed, I think it is the only realistic strategy that might achieve our ultimate ambition to rejoin the PL. Gamechanger is not going to be stumping up for several £5m+ players when we make it to the champs, so how else are we going to acquire the players we will need to compete in the champs?
It may be that my "realism" tends towards the negative, but while I welcome the departure of Evans and the squad development this year, it does strike me as a very short-term approach. It looks like someone has said, "Let's make sure we get promotion this year then worry about the future once we're in the champs". That is a bit too Rotherham for my liking. I would very much welcome somone to show me why my take on the current issues is wrong, but other than a load of abuse about me being a closet budgie I have yet to see anybody say anything rational in response to my worries. |
Chill abit. They've not been here long! They've already said they'll be working on a recruitment team for the long term.
What you say is also completely untrue. Barnsley didn't have a squad full out multi million pound assets and they had a shot at the play offs.
It'll be gradual steps. Rome wasn't built in 3 months. There's alot of work that needs doing that simply can't be done inside of 3 months! | |
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| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 13:32 - Sep 15 with 1511 views | doodah |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 07:12 - Sep 10 by ITFCBlues |
I think it's completely unrealistic to expect us to sign real top end Championship players when sitting in L1. Why would they come here when they can be playing for a premiership spot for a Championship club?
Players can also develop given time and improve. The recruitment's been outstanding and if we do go up, you can then supplement with 2 or 3 higher end Championship players and build. Top end Championship players cost millions as well.
Let's just get out of L1 before worrying about the Championship! |
Of course you're right that we wouldn't attract top end championship players at this stage, but that's not my point. My main concern remains that I don't see any long-term plan for how we would progress once (increasingly, IF) we gain promotion. A pension fund is NOT going to be chucking tens of millions at the club for transfer fees, so where will we generate the cash and players to take us to the position where we become competitive in the Champs?
My personal view is that we should have put a massive emphasis on developing an academy and scouting system to rival that of the lot up the road. They were under threat of administration just a few years ago but were able to sell Maddison for £25m. That enabled them to bring in other emerging talent like Buendia etc, and subsequently they sold Buendia, Godfrey and Lewis (the latter 2 Academy players) for something like a combined total of aroud £80m. That sort of money enables you to invest in players at the top end of the champs, and seriously compete for promotion, which, if successful, brings in serious PL money. I see absolutely no reason in principle why we couldn't replicate a similar system.
I just don't see any of the current crop of players at any level developing into a multi-million pound player (I hope I'm wrong but doubt I am). Currently when we do have an academy player showing genuine signs of serious talent they are quickly and unsuprisingly seduced away by teams with a much better academy system (as was the case with Gibbs). Of course, the approach I'm suggesting would take a few years to develop and require a bit of fan patience, but personally I would rather face that than the very real prospect that we spend God knows how many more frustrating years stagnating as a mid-to-bottom champs club. | | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 13:28 - Sep 16 with 1369 views | doodah |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 07:17 - Sep 10 by ITFCBlues |
Chill abit. They've not been here long! They've already said they'll be working on a recruitment team for the long term.
What you say is also completely untrue. Barnsley didn't have a squad full out multi million pound assets and they had a shot at the play offs.
It'll be gradual steps. Rome wasn't built in 3 months. There's alot of work that needs doing that simply can't be done inside of 3 months! |
"What you say is completely untrue" really? I guess you could take a look at which teams have achieved promotion from the champs in the last decade and have another think. As for Barnsley, they never remotely looked capable of beating the other teams in the play offs. And if your aspiration is for us to emulate Barnsley then that is another sad statement about just where we are as a club.
As for the claim "Rome wasn't built in a day", that's rather the point of my whole post. I want to see evidence of a long term plan based upon building a strong club from academy level upwards. The lot up the road had F'all money but invested what they did have in building up a category 1 academy. All I'm saying is look where it has got them and tell me we couldn't attempt to replicate that success. I just don't see what other long-term plan could work. | | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 11:28 - Sep 17 with 1276 views | Felix1955 |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 22:44 - Sep 1 by itfcjoe |
I think their main beef was how badly the manager hunt after Lee Johnson went - and that whilst when things are going well he’s happy to be front and centre but when they go bad you can’t find him anywhere.
There’s a lot of other rubbish noted, but they seem the main things |
A few days ago I posted a link on here to our forum - otib which highlights what we City fans think about Ashton………..
Essentially he’s an egocentric smooth talking fraud.
That wasn’t obvious at first but his true colours shone thru when he said to our Supporters Club “ it’s communication, not consultation” after being challenged about putting up the SC prices.
As I said the guys a fraud. | | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 12:07 - Sep 17 with 1243 views | J2BLUE |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 11:28 - Sep 17 by Felix1955 |
A few days ago I posted a link on here to our forum - otib which highlights what we City fans think about Ashton………..
Essentially he’s an egocentric smooth talking fraud.
That wasn’t obvious at first but his true colours shone thru when he said to our Supporters Club “ it’s communication, not consultation” after being challenged about putting up the SC prices.
As I said the guys a fraud. |
We don't care what you think.
For nearly 15 years we had Marcus Evans. You probably haven't got a clue about just how bad things were under him. Ashton will undoubtedly be a massive step up even if he's not very good.
We can only judge him on what he has done so far and he has got everything spot on.
Why worry about a league one club? You get nothing out of warning us that he's not very good. It's getting boring now. |  |
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| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 12:44 - Sep 17 with 1214 views | Felix1955 |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 12:07 - Sep 17 by J2BLUE |
We don't care what you think.
For nearly 15 years we had Marcus Evans. You probably haven't got a clue about just how bad things were under him. Ashton will undoubtedly be a massive step up even if he's not very good.
We can only judge him on what he has done so far and he has got everything spot on.
Why worry about a league one club? You get nothing out of warning us that he's not very good. It's getting boring now. |
We are all football fans and we at City don’t have the slightest issue with fans from other clubs visiting our forum - as long as they’re respectful and not there to criticise us.
I think I’m respectful and definitely not here to criticise.
All I’m doing here is to give you the heads up about Ashton and what to expect. | | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 13:11 - Sep 17 with 1192 views | J2BLUE |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 12:44 - Sep 17 by Felix1955 |
We are all football fans and we at City don’t have the slightest issue with fans from other clubs visiting our forum - as long as they’re respectful and not there to criticise us.
I think I’m respectful and definitely not here to criticise.
All I’m doing here is to give you the heads up about Ashton and what to expect. |
Job done. Thanks so much. | |
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| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 14:56 - Sep 17 with 1125 views | Griller |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 23:13 - Sep 1 by Illinoisblue |
A convenient diversion away from the fact just like another big city club - cough, Norwich, cough - they’ve never achieved anything of note in their entire history. |
Hardly fair, Illy! If we manage to stay up this season that would be quite an achievement. For the time being at least we are in the Premier League (again) while you are currently near the bottom of League One. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! |  | | |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 15:00 - Sep 17 with 1110 views | hype313 |
| Brizzle City Fans, what exactly is their beef with Ashton? (n/t) on 14:56 - Sep 17 by Griller |
Hardly fair, Illy! If we manage to stay up this season that would be quite an achievement. For the time being at least we are in the Premier League (again) while you are currently near the bottom of League One. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! |
Genuine question, are you enjoying the fact that you are winless having scored 1 goal and conceded 11? |  |
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