| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... 17:31 - Oct 10 with 12029 views | FrankfurtBlue |
he doesn't! Not since 2014 has he put in £3m+ in one season.
I read on here, and know fans, who really believe that he puts in £5m+ each and every season. That is a myth, prepetuated over the last few years by Milne and McCarthy, and the blind leading the blind.
Don't get me wrong, he injected considerable amounts into the club earlier in his tenure, and he is still funding the club each season: 2017, £2.9m; 2016, £250k; 2015, £230k; 2014, £3.8m, with the level of funding dependent on the extent of other revenues, most importantly net income from player transfers. However, the undisclosed sixth point of his 5 point plan, must read something like "put as little cash as possible into the club".
I suspect that part of the thinking behind the Hurst appointment and bringing in predominantly lower league players rather than experienced Championship players is the cost of wages etc. Our wage bill is already one of the lowest in the Championship, but it is probably even lower now. Also, from a business point of view, bringing in cheap "potential " is far more likely to return a profit on future transfers than established Championship players: think Cresswell, Mings and Webster v Leadbitter, Berra and Bullard.
I digress. Point is, don't be fooled by the statement that ME is putting in significant amounts. It really would not surprise me, if he has got the club near to break even, with the transfer dealings this Summer and the resulting lower wage bill, but that is speculation on my part.
Anyway, don't take my word for it. Take a look for yourself at ITFC's accounts, or the cashflow spreadsheet derived from them by SwissRamble:
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 21:27 - Oct 10 with 3725 views | jjblue84 |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 21:09 - Oct 10 by ghostofescobar |
First thing: I'm a financial nincompoop. Secondly: without him we'd be an additional £49mill in debt. Is that right? |
This is going to be one of those time machine questions.... |  | | |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 21:34 - Oct 10 with 3708 views | BloomBlue |
49÷9=5.4 |  | | |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 21:41 - Oct 10 with 3700 views | Illinoisblue |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 21:07 - Oct 10 by tabletopjoe |
It was a club that was waiting to get back in the top division, a realistic proposition shared by the fans, with a ground regularly described as ‘premier league quality’. Now all long forgotten, with trajectory firmly downwards towards league 1, and the only talk is of staying up while being favourites for relegation |
Life's a bitch, eh? < sings You can't always get what you want > |  |
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 22:12 - Oct 10 with 3672 views | Illinoisblue |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 20:32 - Oct 10 by Guthrum |
Depreciation is there, second row down on the Swiss Ramble figures. |
so you're saying it's not ignored and was there all along? | |
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 22:33 - Oct 10 with 3658 views | King_ding_a_lin_g |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 21:09 - Oct 10 by ghostofescobar |
First thing: I'm a financial nincompoop. Secondly: without him we'd be an additional £49mill in debt. Is that right? |
Plus interest.... but I doubt we’d find a bank to lend that without much to offer in the way of security!
Long and short of it is that despite net transfers of over £13m in our favour, he has still had to put a shed load of money in just to keep us afloat. Thank God.
Why anybody can have an issue with this is beyond me! [Post edited 10 Oct 2018 22:37]
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 23:07 - Oct 10 with 3613 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 21:04 - Oct 10 by tabletopjoe |
Anyone who owned the club would have to offset losses. It’s the minimum you can do. The point is that he’s selling players to keep afloat, not putting in 5-6m pounds a year |
Offsetting losses IS putting money in. The losses are money that's been spent. Without him spending it people wouldn't be paid, etc. |  |
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| Can I ask a few questions, please? on 23:11 - Oct 10 with 3613 views | ScottCandage |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 17:58 - Oct 10 by FrankfurtBlue |
If you understood the difference between cashflow statements and P&Ls, you really wouldn't ask such a question. Read the accounts yourself, if that is your interest.
My point was to convey to those who don't already know, how much CASH Evans has put into ITFC over the last few seasons. |
(first of all, I'm American, and have taken legal accounting classes, but I don't understand the UK terminology sometimes, so apologies in advance).
Which label would player salaries be under? Operating profit/loss? And I'm unclear about player registrations. Does that entail expenditures on free agents? I'm unsure how that could end up a negative number (as it did for every year but 1 in the first seven years), as when you lose a player as a free agent, he should have a zero value to the club. Is there more built into that line? Or is Player purchases the free agents and Player registrations the net p/l on transfers only?
I want to understand about the finances at the club, and you do seem to have a grasp on them. That's why I ask. Thanks. |  | | |
| Can I ask a few questions, please? on 23:20 - Oct 10 with 3601 views | King_ding_a_lin_g |
| Can I ask a few questions, please? on 23:11 - Oct 10 by ScottCandage |
(first of all, I'm American, and have taken legal accounting classes, but I don't understand the UK terminology sometimes, so apologies in advance).
Which label would player salaries be under? Operating profit/loss? And I'm unclear about player registrations. Does that entail expenditures on free agents? I'm unsure how that could end up a negative number (as it did for every year but 1 in the first seven years), as when you lose a player as a free agent, he should have a zero value to the club. Is there more built into that line? Or is Player purchases the free agents and Player registrations the net p/l on transfers only?
I want to understand about the finances at the club, and you do seem to have a grasp on them. That's why I ask. Thanks. |
Salaries are operating costs.
I haven’t read the accounting policies (perhaps I should) however my understanding is that when a player is purchased, the registration is recognised as an intangible asset and amortised. A negative number indicates that more was spent (cash outflow) on registations than was received on the sale of registrations (cash inflow). So we’ve received £13.1m more than we’ve spent. | | | |
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| And one last question, please? on 23:28 - Oct 10 with 3597 views | ScottCandage |
| Can I ask a few questions, please? on 23:11 - Oct 10 by ScottCandage |
(first of all, I'm American, and have taken legal accounting classes, but I don't understand the UK terminology sometimes, so apologies in advance).
Which label would player salaries be under? Operating profit/loss? And I'm unclear about player registrations. Does that entail expenditures on free agents? I'm unsure how that could end up a negative number (as it did for every year but 1 in the first seven years), as when you lose a player as a free agent, he should have a zero value to the club. Is there more built into that line? Or is Player purchases the free agents and Player registrations the net p/l on transfers only?
I want to understand about the finances at the club, and you do seem to have a grasp on them. That's why I ask. Thanks. |
I think I would be on solid ground here. The 12 mil listed in 2008 was his cash injection (plus the purchase of the existing 32 mil in debt for however much he paid the debt holders for it) that caused the issuance of new shares, him taking 87.5% and 12.5% going to the existing shareholders.
Now, as this is a cash flow analysis, yes, that should be considered a cash flow to the club. However, and this is my ultimate point, can or should we could that same 12 million as part of the analysis when the club is valued (sale price wise)? Because the 12 mil represents the cash portion of his acquisition cost of the 87.5% of the newly issued shares. He can't charge that to the club, can he (or did he)? Thus, should the 12 mil be counted in cash flow at all, as that 12 mil was (in part) the cost to Marcus Evans of the club itself? If we should not count it as cash flow, then he would have "injected" (loaned) 35.7 mil over 9 years, an average of 3.96 mil per year (but yes, much less lately).
And, then, ultimately, as I'm sure that the 32 mil debt has to be repaid sometime, that plus the 35.7 mil in loans over 9 years, equal the 67.7 mil in debt that the club finds itself in (at least according to Wikipedia).
Again, thanks! [Post edited 10 Oct 2018 23:51]
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| Thanks, that helps a lot! (n/t) on 23:28 - Oct 10 with 3580 views | ScottCandage |
| Can I ask a few questions, please? on 23:20 - Oct 10 by King_ding_a_lin_g |
Salaries are operating costs.
I haven’t read the accounting policies (perhaps I should) however my understanding is that when a player is purchased, the registration is recognised as an intangible asset and amortised. A negative number indicates that more was spent (cash outflow) on registations than was received on the sale of registrations (cash inflow). So we’ve received £13.1m more than we’ve spent. |
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 01:00 - Oct 11 with 3556 views | Guthrum |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 21:07 - Oct 10 by tabletopjoe |
It was a club that was waiting to get back in the top division, a realistic proposition shared by the fans, with a ground regularly described as ‘premier league quality’. Now all long forgotten, with trajectory firmly downwards towards league 1, and the only talk is of staying up while being favourites for relegation |
Were the fans being truly realistic, even then? The ground was already moving beneath our feet. |  |
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 06:28 - Oct 11 with 3525 views | Benters2 |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 17:40 - Oct 10 by chicoazul |
In other news, water confirmed as "wet". |
I make you right. |  | | |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 07:30 - Oct 11 with 3501 views | Bluefish |
Have you also included to money ploughed into advertising and sponsorship or do you really think he was doing that for business reasons? |  |
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 07:39 - Oct 11 with 3488 views | StokieBlue |
Looking at figures in isolation by year means nothing. You need to look at the average which is 4.8m per year over a 10 year period.
If you want to make a point about his financing dwindling you could exponentially weight the average but over such a short series it's a bit pointless.
Sure, cherry picking numbers in years with high transfer income supports your point but what about the other years where he put in nearly twice the 10 year average to balance the books?
If he is running the club close to break even that is surely only a good thing who want him gone and someone else to take over.
SB [Post edited 11 Oct 2018 7:43]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 07:49 - Oct 11 with 3478 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 07:39 - Oct 11 by StokieBlue |
Looking at figures in isolation by year means nothing. You need to look at the average which is 4.8m per year over a 10 year period.
If you want to make a point about his financing dwindling you could exponentially weight the average but over such a short series it's a bit pointless.
Sure, cherry picking numbers in years with high transfer income supports your point but what about the other years where he put in nearly twice the 10 year average to balance the books?
If he is running the club close to break even that is surely only a good thing who want him gone and someone else to take over.
SB [Post edited 11 Oct 2018 7:43]
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I think the only point I would make in favour of the OP is there was something of a switch in strategy a few years ago where we stopped spending and started to rely on player sales more - with the likes of Wickham, Mings, Murphy, Webster and Waghorn all having brought in sizeable fees
I would suggest the OP is correct that we’ll probably make a profit this season and the average will drop
I also think it’s likely that strategy will continue and Evans’ losses will be limited going forward. This doesn’t change the fact that he’s put in large amounts historically but does mean he won’t still be putting in £5m a season. I can’t say I blame him, but obviously it’s not great for us as supporters and comes with the risk of relegation if we get it wrong - as this seasons results show |  |
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 08:55 - Oct 11 with 3437 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 07:49 - Oct 11 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
I think the only point I would make in favour of the OP is there was something of a switch in strategy a few years ago where we stopped spending and started to rely on player sales more - with the likes of Wickham, Mings, Murphy, Webster and Waghorn all having brought in sizeable fees
I would suggest the OP is correct that we’ll probably make a profit this season and the average will drop
I also think it’s likely that strategy will continue and Evans’ losses will be limited going forward. This doesn’t change the fact that he’s put in large amounts historically but does mean he won’t still be putting in £5m a season. I can’t say I blame him, but obviously it’s not great for us as supporters and comes with the risk of relegation if we get it wrong - as this seasons results show |
Rather than answer individual comments, here is an attempt to answer your various criticisms.
A number of you have (mis)interpreted what I actually wrote. £6-8m is the figure that was mentioned in a post as recently as yesterday. I also wrote that £5m is the figure that I constantly hear bandied around. Both are not true. The figures I gave are from the accounts (2017, £2.9m; 2016, £250k; 2015, £230k; 2014, £3.8m). Please find me a figure of £5m in there. I never wrote anything about historical averages. I did write that "he injected considerable amounts into the club earlier in his tenure", but he has clearly now changed tack: ME currently puts in as little as possible.
I am not maligning or criticising the amount he injects. He owns the club and he can do what he wants. I am, however, attempting to correct every single one of you who continually perpetuates the lie that he sticks £5m a year into ITFC. He simply doesn't do that any more, evidenced by the figures.
I specifically wrote about the amount of cash he injects into the club, not the debt owed to him by the club, or the losses in the P&L. Even with extensive analysis, it would be difficult to state how the debt Has accumulated, but there will be book entries such as interest accrued, depreciation and amortisation that increase losess and the debt owed to ME beyond the level of cash he has actually injected.
Lastly, communication is difficult, but certainly works more effectively, if you try to understand what somebody is actually saying rather than twisting their words to fit your own preconceived opinions. If you find a fact in my post that is false, speak up and I will apologise and correct it. The rest of my post is my opinions based on the facts. If you disagree with my opinions, please feel free to substantiate your argument with facts. | | | |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 10:58 - Oct 11 with 3363 views | King_ding_a_lin_g |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 08:55 - Oct 11 by FrankfurtBlue |
Rather than answer individual comments, here is an attempt to answer your various criticisms.
A number of you have (mis)interpreted what I actually wrote. £6-8m is the figure that was mentioned in a post as recently as yesterday. I also wrote that £5m is the figure that I constantly hear bandied around. Both are not true. The figures I gave are from the accounts (2017, £2.9m; 2016, £250k; 2015, £230k; 2014, £3.8m). Please find me a figure of £5m in there. I never wrote anything about historical averages. I did write that "he injected considerable amounts into the club earlier in his tenure", but he has clearly now changed tack: ME currently puts in as little as possible.
I am not maligning or criticising the amount he injects. He owns the club and he can do what he wants. I am, however, attempting to correct every single one of you who continually perpetuates the lie that he sticks £5m a year into ITFC. He simply doesn't do that any more, evidenced by the figures.
I specifically wrote about the amount of cash he injects into the club, not the debt owed to him by the club, or the losses in the P&L. Even with extensive analysis, it would be difficult to state how the debt Has accumulated, but there will be book entries such as interest accrued, depreciation and amortisation that increase losess and the debt owed to ME beyond the level of cash he has actually injected.
Lastly, communication is difficult, but certainly works more effectively, if you try to understand what somebody is actually saying rather than twisting their words to fit your own preconceived opinions. If you find a fact in my post that is false, speak up and I will apologise and correct it. The rest of my post is my opinions based on the facts. If you disagree with my opinions, please feel free to substantiate your argument with facts. |
His model appears to be that the club funds the operating shortfall itself from transfer fees and if that’s not sufficient then he’ll make up the difference.
It’s not a bad plan in my view, in theory, if you are confident that you are going to produce talent that other clubs want every summer (or sell players at a profit like Waghorn, Mings, Cresswell etc) but if we get a couple of summers without substantial player sales then the only way to continue is for him to make up the difference. It’s a nice security blanket to have.
It’s a plan that means he’d probably cash in on the likes of Dozzell, Nydam, Downes etc before choosing to make up any shortfall from his own pocket, which whilst it is sustainable financially, probably isn’t on the pitch. | | | |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 11:01 - Oct 11 with 3360 views | Guthrum |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 08:55 - Oct 11 by FrankfurtBlue |
Rather than answer individual comments, here is an attempt to answer your various criticisms.
A number of you have (mis)interpreted what I actually wrote. £6-8m is the figure that was mentioned in a post as recently as yesterday. I also wrote that £5m is the figure that I constantly hear bandied around. Both are not true. The figures I gave are from the accounts (2017, £2.9m; 2016, £250k; 2015, £230k; 2014, £3.8m). Please find me a figure of £5m in there. I never wrote anything about historical averages. I did write that "he injected considerable amounts into the club earlier in his tenure", but he has clearly now changed tack: ME currently puts in as little as possible.
I am not maligning or criticising the amount he injects. He owns the club and he can do what he wants. I am, however, attempting to correct every single one of you who continually perpetuates the lie that he sticks £5m a year into ITFC. He simply doesn't do that any more, evidenced by the figures.
I specifically wrote about the amount of cash he injects into the club, not the debt owed to him by the club, or the losses in the P&L. Even with extensive analysis, it would be difficult to state how the debt Has accumulated, but there will be book entries such as interest accrued, depreciation and amortisation that increase losess and the debt owed to ME beyond the level of cash he has actually injected.
Lastly, communication is difficult, but certainly works more effectively, if you try to understand what somebody is actually saying rather than twisting their words to fit your own preconceived opinions. If you find a fact in my post that is false, speak up and I will apologise and correct it. The rest of my post is my opinions based on the facts. If you disagree with my opinions, please feel free to substantiate your argument with facts. |
So you're saying that in certain, specific seasons the Evans-owned parent company of ITFC may have had to inject less money into the club than others, because we have been fortunate with a handful of lucrative player sales.
While there has been considerable cost cutting (there needed to be, with the scale of losses ten years ago and declining turnover) as a deliberate policy relying on player sales would be crazy given how much down to luck that is (i.e. do we happen to have any players other clubs want to pay for?). It is a bonus, nothing more.
Given the losses - and thus accrued debt - is to cover real outgoings, such as wages, what makes you think it isn't real money flowing into the club? The figures you used include depreciation and amortisation. It has been stated several times on here that Evans is not levying interest on the debts which belong to him (there would be no point, as the parent company would simply have to increase its funding to cover the further shortfall in income). | |
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 11:20 - Oct 11 with 3326 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 11:01 - Oct 11 by Guthrum |
So you're saying that in certain, specific seasons the Evans-owned parent company of ITFC may have had to inject less money into the club than others, because we have been fortunate with a handful of lucrative player sales.
While there has been considerable cost cutting (there needed to be, with the scale of losses ten years ago and declining turnover) as a deliberate policy relying on player sales would be crazy given how much down to luck that is (i.e. do we happen to have any players other clubs want to pay for?). It is a bonus, nothing more.
Given the losses - and thus accrued debt - is to cover real outgoings, such as wages, what makes you think it isn't real money flowing into the club? The figures you used include depreciation and amortisation. It has been stated several times on here that Evans is not levying interest on the debts which belong to him (there would be no point, as the parent company would simply have to increase its funding to cover the further shortfall in income). |
My point is that ME is not injecting £6-8m per season and not even £5m, so people who state that are wrong.
2017 cash lent by ME was £2.9m
2016 cash lent by ME was £250k
2015 cash lent by ME was £230k
2014 cash lent by ME was £3.8m
That is real money he is putting in, but I don't see a figure of £5m there: Do you? | | | |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 12:11 - Oct 11 with 3277 views | braveblue |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 21:09 - Oct 10 by ghostofescobar |
First thing: I'm a financial nincompoop. Secondly: without him we'd be an additional £49mill in debt. Is that right? |
No | | | |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 12:14 - Oct 11 with 3271 views | jonbull88 |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 11:20 - Oct 11 by FrankfurtBlue |
My point is that ME is not injecting £6-8m per season and not even £5m, so people who state that are wrong.
2017 cash lent by ME was £2.9m
2016 cash lent by ME was £250k
2015 cash lent by ME was £230k
2014 cash lent by ME was £3.8m
That is real money he is putting in, but I don't see a figure of £5m there: Do you? |
Does Evans not inject £2m a year in to the academy every season that doesn’t have to be declared for ffp? | | | |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 12:19 - Oct 11 with 3251 views | tabletopjoe |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 23:07 - Oct 10 by Swansea_Blue |
Offsetting losses IS putting money in. The losses are money that's been spent. Without him spending it people wouldn't be paid, etc. |
Indeed, I never said it was |  |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 12:31 - Oct 11 with 3235 views | jeera |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 11:20 - Oct 11 by FrankfurtBlue |
My point is that ME is not injecting £6-8m per season and not even £5m, so people who state that are wrong.
2017 cash lent by ME was £2.9m
2016 cash lent by ME was £250k
2015 cash lent by ME was £230k
2014 cash lent by ME was £3.8m
That is real money he is putting in, but I don't see a figure of £5m there: Do you? |
Your actual reason for posting seems to be all about telling others they're wrong. You've also used one post in which Currie suggested losses and didn't actually use the wording that ME was covering every penny directly. You then used that one post for your sensational heading.
All you seem to have done is tell everyone [most] what they already know in a round about way.
You've cherry picked those years to support a point you have decided is relevant, whereas over the decade the figures banded about are nearer the mark already made.
We know he's trying to wind down his financial input. This isn't news. |  |
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 12:31 - Oct 11 with 3233 views | LeagueOne |
It's good to see it spelt out plainly, but he's also not lied about it. He's consistently said he'd be making the club cost neutral, hence the 5 point plan. If the club loses money, he just adjusts the budget year on year to work towards that goal. We're now what the 3rd or 4th smallest budget in the top 2 tiers of English football?
If we dropped he'd just make adjustments based on the losses and continue on as is, he's worth close to 700million quid, he can afford to lose a few million a year here and has already absorbed 100million of debt he's mounted up while running the club.
He was a Chelsea season ticket holder who moved up to Bury, and got talked into buying the club by Sheepshanks and Bowden. He now complains that he was mislead about what it would take to get us promoted, now promotion is history he's not interested. |  |
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| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 13:32 - Oct 11 with 3186 views | Guthrum |
| Evans puts in £6-8m a year? Err NO.... on 12:14 - Oct 11 by jonbull88 |
Does Evans not inject £2m a year in to the academy every season that doesn’t have to be declared for ffp? |
Yes, but that will still appear in the main accounts. | |
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