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Religious folk believe that God created the universe. Fine. Those of you who are atheists, therefore, must surely believe the possibility that there are (or have been) lots of universes?
My thinking is this - we know a universe can come into being from, essentially, nothing. Because we're in one. And within that universe there is never just one of something. There are at least 2,500 species of moth in the UK alone, for example.
So it seems unlikely that only one universe would have developed. If it can happen as easily as it seems to have - and with no outside influence as you atheists believe - then it should have happened countless times? And presumably evolution would have happened in a similar way in all of these times?
I know the multi-verse theory isn't particularly new, but would you agree that if you don't believe God created one universe then it's highly like there are many, many universes (we just can't see/get to them because we're in this one)? When compared to all other events that are able to happen due to the laws of nature/physics etc. it's surely very very unlikely a universe would only come about just one time ever?
The answer is that having faith is about having faith.
"EDIT: If you're a big jizzface and don't like wine, use stock and lemon juice. In fact, don't even bother, just have a ready meal and a long hard look in the mirror." - Dyland
The answer is that having faith is about having faith.
Calm down, George.
"We need a man in charge of boys, they wont like it up em, but they'd rather it be coming from their gaffer than those broom wrangling wannabes in league 1."
"EDIT: If you're a big jizzface and don't like wine, use stock and lemon juice. In fact, don't even bother, just have a ready meal and a long hard look in the mirror." - Dyland
If, in millions of years time, our technology has reached the point where we could create a singularity and from there a "universe" but with physical laws tweaked to whatever parameters we saw fit would we be gods?
Or just evolved creatures messing about with science?
SB
“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."
If, in millions of years time, our technology has reached the point where we could create a singularity and from there a "universe" but with physical laws tweaked to whatever parameters we saw fit would we be gods?
Or just evolved creatures messing about with science?
"We need a man in charge of boys, they wont like it up em, but they'd rather it be coming from their gaffer than those broom wrangling wannabes in league 1."
"We dont know if the universe was created or developed from nothing."
That's the closest I've seen you come to admitting there could be a God!
We certainly do know there is never just one of something. Everything in the known universe there are several of. So surely it's highly plausible there are/were several universes as well?
This is just bollox.
"We dont know if the universe was created or developed from nothing." Says nothing about god- its just the only correct answer available. I genuinely have no idea of your logical journey frmo that statement to "thats the closes ive seen you come to admitting there could be a god". For the record I have never claimed to know that there could not be a god...
The second para is almost worse. Its the black swan fallacy epitomised.
"I have never seen a black swan, therefore there are no black swans". Fundamentally fallacious.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
Not really, because infinity is a concept whereas the universe is an actual thing.
How do you know that?
"We need a man in charge of boys, they wont like it up em, but they'd rather it be coming from their gaffer than those broom wrangling wannabes in league 1."
There are likely many universes but not for the reason you have put forward.
There are various theories (such as brane theory) with regards to multiple universes, there are also theories on a perpetual universe where is expands and then shrinks and then expands again. Furthermore there are theories than universes colliding create new ones. Nobody knows at the moment.
What I don't understand is your crossing of universes and evolution? They aren't really connected, one happens in the other if the conditions in that specific universe are conductive to life (by no means a given). You can see more about that here:
I also don't know what any of the above has to do with God.
SB
I'll have a read of that later. What I meant is the universe obeys its own laws - it is allowed to occur within those laws (the same laws that govern evolution). Not sure I explained that all that well, but essentially the connection is that they all obey the same laws. Therefore if 'coming into existence' is allowed, then you'd think it has happened multiple times (and thus evolution has happened multiple times). Just like multiple versions of moths occur, so the universe can occur multiple times if it can occur once.
It didn't come from essentially nothing. You can see the big bang and therefore see it came from something - a point of singularity or something similar - not nothing.
You can have different types of singularity. We know this from black holes. You can have a singularity or spinning singularity (Ringularity). If a ringularity existed at the centre of the big bang, then many more with vastly different universes could exist.
One day, we will not be able to see the universe beyond the local group. It may be that in the same way that if a species existed then wouldn't be able to see other galaxies, we can't see other universes. But at some point, it may have been perfectly plausible to see the other universes.
When it comes to a god. I don't really care either way. I don't think it matters to the points raised. All is possible with or without a creator. Just unlikely the creator written in books, due to the inconsistences with out scientific understanding
But where did the point of singularity come from? Surely if you go back far enough there is a point where there is nothing, before the point of singularity came into being?
Someone on here recommended the book "A Universe from Nothing" by the physicist Lawrence M. Krauss, which posits that there was such a point and that something can come into being from nothing.
Obviously we don't know, it's only a theory. But I don't think you can say "It didn't come from essentially nothing."
If, in millions of years time, our technology has reached the point where we could create a singularity and from there a "universe" but with physical laws tweaked to whatever parameters we saw fit would we be gods?
Or just evolved creatures messing about with science?
SB
Who knows? Maybe that already happened and we are the product of it!
But where did the point of singularity come from? Surely if you go back far enough there is a point where there is nothing, before the point of singularity came into being?
Someone on here recommended the book "A Universe from Nothing" by the physicist Lawrence M. Krauss, which posits that there was such a point and that something can come into being from nothing.
Obviously we don't know, it's only a theory. But I don't think you can say "It didn't come from essentially nothing."
We do not know the asnewr to "why is there something ratehr than nothing".
"God", of course, has no explanatory power in that regard either.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
We do not know the asnewr to "why is there something ratehr than nothing".
"God", of course, has no explanatory power in that regard either.
He won't be happy if he reads you saying that.
"We need a man in charge of boys, they wont like it up em, but they'd rather it be coming from their gaffer than those broom wrangling wannabes in league 1."
If God created it then that’s a very good answer...and it really annoys people who don’t want it to be true!!
No- the concept of god doesnt answer anything. Its no different to saying "it was magic".
Importantly, of course, even the existence of a god wouldnt be an answer- because it would raise the question "why was there a god rather than nothing".
The religous answer is "because god is outside of space and time and is eternal". Which of course makes no logical sense on our current understanding and is, in any event, special pleading. If god is not subject to the question "where did it come from" then there is no good reason the universe should be. It could after all be eternal as well.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
No- the concept of god doesnt answer anything. Its no different to saying "it was magic".
Importantly, of course, even the existence of a god wouldnt be an answer- because it would raise the question "why was there a god rather than nothing".
The religous answer is "because god is outside of space and time and is eternal". Which of course makes no logical sense on our current understanding and is, in any event, special pleading. If god is not subject to the question "where did it come from" then there is no good reason the universe should be. It could after all be eternal as well.
No- the concept of god doesnt answer anything. Its no different to saying "it was magic".
Importantly, of course, even the existence of a god wouldnt be an answer- because it would raise the question "why was there a god rather than nothing".
The religous answer is "because god is outside of space and time and is eternal". Which of course makes no logical sense on our current understanding and is, in any event, special pleading. If god is not subject to the question "where did it come from" then there is no good reason the universe should be. It could after all be eternal as well.
"We dont know if the universe was created or developed from nothing." Says nothing about god- its just the only correct answer available. I genuinely have no idea of your logical journey frmo that statement to "thats the closes ive seen you come to admitting there could be a god". For the record I have never claimed to know that there could not be a god...
The second para is almost worse. Its the black swan fallacy epitomised.
"I have never seen a black swan, therefore there are no black swans". Fundamentally fallacious.
Alright fella, no need to get rude. This is a lighthearted debate!
I must admit I had you wrong - I always thought you were adamant there is no God.
As for the black swan fallacy - I don't think that's quite right. Ok, there could be one of something that we haven't discovered yet, but everything else we know of has multiples... so it's not too big a logical leap to say that there could be multiple universes. Or even that it's likely, no?
The whole thrust of my OP was that you're more likely to go for multiple universes if you're non-religious.
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