| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... 07:25 - Jun 22 with 10644 views | Libero |
Should we engage or ignore?
Interesting experiences shared and points made in this article from the BBC website this morning that reflects various things I’ve seen on TWTD in recent weeks.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-53000622 [Post edited 22 Jun 2020 7:36]
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:21 - Jun 22 with 1295 views | Herbivore |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:19 - Jun 22 by Libero |
I think Joe makes a fair point, there are posters who only serve to undermine their own point by the manner in which it’s communicated. |
I think in most cases they've tried taking a reasonable approach before and it's not made a jot of difference. It's understandable they then just quite bluntly call out people expressing bigotry. If other people want to step up and challenge more reasonably then that'd be great but lots just sit on their hands. |  |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:26 - Jun 22 with 1283 views | lowhouseblue |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:17 - Jun 22 by Herbivore |
It's odd that the focus of your ire is more on those challenging racism than those expressing racist views. I don't really get that to be honest. |
some people actively look to create or exaggerate division. it's an online tribal thing i guess - people want to zealously police the boundaries of their online tribe. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:27 - Jun 22 with 1282 views | Libero |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:21 - Jun 22 by Herbivore |
I think in most cases they've tried taking a reasonable approach before and it's not made a jot of difference. It's understandable they then just quite bluntly call out people expressing bigotry. If other people want to step up and challenge more reasonably then that'd be great but lots just sit on their hands. |
Yes, I think you’re right, however in my opinion there are also characters who are needlessly confrontational and over zealous.
I think this is the issue, the article is discussing, how does one go about suitably interacting with people exposing such levels of bigotry and ignorance?
It makes reference in the article that for some people it’s best for their own mental health if they do not engage, problem is I doubt many people who could do with reframing from interactions for this reason possess enough self awareness or control in the moment to do just that. [Post edited 22 Jun 2020 8:28]
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:28 - Jun 22 with 1269 views | itfcjoe |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:17 - Jun 22 by Herbivore |
It's odd that the focus of your ire is more on those challenging racism than those expressing racist views. I don't really get that to be honest. |
"You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" |  |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:30 - Jun 22 with 1260 views | Herbivore |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:28 - Jun 22 by itfcjoe |
"You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" |
Not when the flies in question aren't interested in moving away from their mound of horse sh!t. | |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:31 - Jun 22 with 1256 views | bluelagos |
Difficult one. Upon seeing a clearly racist post (Where were the BLM protesters when Lee Rigby was killed?) I now simply post "Seriously?"
Make the point, avoid an argument and if they want to double down, there is the unfriend button (which I have used)
On here, tend to make a point and then leave well alone tbh. Same approach with conspiracy theorists. Why play in the gutter? Far better places to be. |  |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:34 - Jun 22 with 1235 views | vapour_trail |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:27 - Jun 22 by Libero |
Yes, I think you’re right, however in my opinion there are also characters who are needlessly confrontational and over zealous.
I think this is the issue, the article is discussing, how does one go about suitably interacting with people exposing such levels of bigotry and ignorance?
It makes reference in the article that for some people it’s best for their own mental health if they do not engage, problem is I doubt many people who could do with reframing from interactions for this reason possess enough self awareness or control in the moment to do just that. [Post edited 22 Jun 2020 8:28]
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Sorry, someone who’s mental health is better served not getting involved, is likely to lack self awareness and control? |  |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:35 - Jun 22 with 1241 views | Oldsmoker |
We must now all up our game regarding racism. As a country, if we don't catch the moment and keep the momentum going then it will be in vain.
If not now then when?
It's sad that people have cut off friends and family they've known for some time.
It takes years to make friends - true friends - but you can lose them in a few seconds with a bad comment. |  |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:35 - Jun 22 with 1234 views | WeWereZombies |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 07:50 - Jun 22 by Libero |
I can’t imagine the level of sh1t posting happening on Facebook atm, thankfully I removed myself from it 4/5 years ago and don’t have to witness it apart from when the missus shows me something. |
I've had a disagreement with a friend about the suitability of Facebook for organising things and things are a bit testy between us now. I have yet to direct her towards the Studio B interview between Christopher Wylie and Maria Ressa where Wylie (former Facebook employee and the man who broke the Cambridge Analytica scandal) revealed that Facebook had not only banned him but had removed every shred of evidence that he ever worker for them. An audience member comforted him with the news that a study had found that people's happiness increased when they left Facebook:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/01/facebook-mental-health-study- |  |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:41 - Jun 22 with 1196 views | Libero |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:34 - Jun 22 by vapour_trail |
Sorry, someone who’s mental health is better served not getting involved, is likely to lack self awareness and control? |
In the moment of engagement itself, potentially. I know it’s something I’ve certainly experienced in the past and in retrospect have noticed as a pattern of behaviour fuelled by the chemical imbalance or obsession that only serves to create more conflict. | | | |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:44 - Jun 22 with 1194 views | Libero |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:31 - Jun 22 by bluelagos |
Difficult one. Upon seeing a clearly racist post (Where were the BLM protesters when Lee Rigby was killed?) I now simply post "Seriously?"
Make the point, avoid an argument and if they want to double down, there is the unfriend button (which I have used)
On here, tend to make a point and then leave well alone tbh. Same approach with conspiracy theorists. Why play in the gutter? Far better places to be. |
I guess that’s it, we all have our own patterns and preferences which we play out to try and avoid unpleasant situations while not compromising our values.
It’s easy to get carried away, more so online I’d suggest. | | | |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:45 - Jun 22 with 1204 views | factual_blue |
TWTD is the only 'social media' I use. From what I gather what we see on here from racists and fascists is pretty mild. The trouble is that racists and fascists 'know' and 'believe' stuff. They don't look at any real evidence or facts. They either cherry pick or rely on out-dated and disproven science or information. The very basis is of their views - 'race' - is now known to be wrong; it was a construct of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to legitimise slavery and imperialism.
And, as with religious zealots, their minds are closed. They 'know' they're right with the same certainty of religious zealot.
The best strategy on TWTD - in my view - is to give themselves enough rope to hang themselves and either ensure they don't want to come back or get banned. |  |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:56 - Jun 22 with 1164 views | WeWereZombies |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:45 - Jun 22 by factual_blue |
TWTD is the only 'social media' I use. From what I gather what we see on here from racists and fascists is pretty mild. The trouble is that racists and fascists 'know' and 'believe' stuff. They don't look at any real evidence or facts. They either cherry pick or rely on out-dated and disproven science or information. The very basis is of their views - 'race' - is now known to be wrong; it was a construct of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to legitimise slavery and imperialism.
And, as with religious zealots, their minds are closed. They 'know' they're right with the same certainty of religious zealot.
The best strategy on TWTD - in my view - is to give themselves enough rope to hang themselves and either ensure they don't want to come back or get banned. |
I was about to uppie that but have a couple of reservations, the give them enough rope tactic does lead to these tedious ten pagers and, as itfcjoe has pointed out, look off putting to casual visitors to the forum. I read the first four pages of the 'Disappointment' one and gave up when the repetitions became repetitions of repetitions. On the word 'race', if we do away with that then what does that do for tenet of 'irrespective of race, colour or creed'? | |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:59 - Jun 22 with 1155 views | factual_blue |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:56 - Jun 22 by WeWereZombies |
I was about to uppie that but have a couple of reservations, the give them enough rope tactic does lead to these tedious ten pagers and, as itfcjoe has pointed out, look off putting to casual visitors to the forum. I read the first four pages of the 'Disappointment' one and gave up when the repetitions became repetitions of repetitions. On the word 'race', if we do away with that then what does that do for tenet of 'irrespective of race, colour or creed'? |
The phrase becomes 'irrespective of creed or colour', as those two things exist, and - sadly - divide people against each other. | |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 09:08 - Jun 22 with 1134 views | WeWereZombies |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:59 - Jun 22 by factual_blue |
The phrase becomes 'irrespective of creed or colour', as those two things exist, and - sadly - divide people against each other. |
Or you can expand the set of definitions to emphasise the importance of a fairer society, you may care to note the final one that is included at the commencement of this explanation from the U.S. Department of Justice:
https://www.justice.gov/crt/nondiscrimination-basis-race-color-national-origin-s | |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 09:15 - Jun 22 with 1121 views | factual_blue |
So long as I can continue to hold my prejudice against battenberg cake, that's fine. | |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 09:17 - Jun 22 with 1120 views | trueblue1970 |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:12 - Jun 22 by itfcjoe |
This board is OTT, those threads do nothing for a more well rounded or balanced approaches on the board.
Some take more satisfaction in telling people they are racist than trying to talk them round a little bit and work out why they hold certain positions. I wouldn't say it's virtue signalling, but more just pious and it puts people off using the board. |
As always a good post a Joe
Racism should always be challenged, I think it’s about education if challenge is too direct barriers come up, if you talk to people in conversation see where their thinking comes from you have a better chance of changing their thinking
There are posters on this forum who before the George Floyd incident would jump all over other posters whether the theme of conversation was about race or not, I noticed yesterday that a certain poster only made reference to calling out racists but they have for a long time belittled others on here their behaviour stopping others posting I’m not sure how or why they have been allowed to get away with it for so long |  | | |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 10:10 - Jun 22 with 1063 views | Darth_Koont |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:28 - Jun 22 by itfcjoe |
"You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" |
You can lead a horse to water ... |  |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 10:14 - Jun 22 with 1057 views | clive_baker |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:12 - Jun 22 by itfcjoe |
This board is OTT, those threads do nothing for a more well rounded or balanced approaches on the board.
Some take more satisfaction in telling people they are racist than trying to talk them round a little bit and work out why they hold certain positions. I wouldn't say it's virtue signalling, but more just pious and it puts people off using the board. |
Spot on. Not to mention the insults. Thread after thread of strangers telling another stranger on the internet that they're an idiot (often much worse), while trying to take a moral high ground in the process.
Nobody comes out of those threads looking good. [Post edited 22 Jun 2020 10:17]
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 10:16 - Jun 22 with 1046 views | itfcjoe |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 10:10 - Jun 22 by Darth_Koont |
You can lead a horse to water ... |
Also true, and that is very difficult as I find in real life - but just writing people off when they aren't the foaming at the mouth guys you see 'defending war statues' doesn't help for me.
But this Government, and the those pulling the strings behind it from Vote Leave, have deliberately set out to divide the population, and drive the wedge further and further - this approach on here just helps to drive the wedge in my view | |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 10:24 - Jun 22 with 1005 views | clive_baker |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:27 - Jun 22 by Libero |
Yes, I think you’re right, however in my opinion there are also characters who are needlessly confrontational and over zealous.
I think this is the issue, the article is discussing, how does one go about suitably interacting with people exposing such levels of bigotry and ignorance?
It makes reference in the article that for some people it’s best for their own mental health if they do not engage, problem is I doubt many people who could do with reframing from interactions for this reason possess enough self awareness or control in the moment to do just that. [Post edited 22 Jun 2020 8:28]
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I agree completely.
The issue is it's not reserved for overt bigots, in which case crack on, call them out. It's the relentlessness of it, even concerning the most frivolous of subjects. I've seen people being sworn at for favouring Player A over Player B in their preferred starting line up. It's bonkers. Confrontational and over zealous is precisely it.
Ultimately, the litmus test should be do you engage with people on here as you would do face to face in a pub in the 'real world'. I'm sure if people are honest with themselves there's a filter in the real world that people are happy to discard online. The question is to what extent is that healthy or not, and a few frequently over step the mark IMO.
EDIT: Re. the article I do think it's much harder to call out a family member or real life friend in front of people, than to do so on here. There's 2 ways of looking at it, the anonymity on here could be a force for good, a way for people to call out such views without fear of consequences like you might not be able to on Facebook to your uncle Nigel, where it's perhaps easier to turn a blind eye. However that also in itself has risks as people can largely say what they want and be overly abusive as some on here take the opportunity to do. [Post edited 22 Jun 2020 10:42]
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 10:27 - Jun 22 with 1002 views | Darth_Koont |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 10:16 - Jun 22 by itfcjoe |
Also true, and that is very difficult as I find in real life - but just writing people off when they aren't the foaming at the mouth guys you see 'defending war statues' doesn't help for me.
But this Government, and the those pulling the strings behind it from Vote Leave, have deliberately set out to divide the population, and drive the wedge further and further - this approach on here just helps to drive the wedge in my view |
Problem is that we HAVE become far too tolerant and accepting of racists and xenophobes as a country. So much so that they've arguably taken over - or at least control the agenda.
Underlying all that seems to be the belief that people's opinions (especially our own) are somehow sacred, regardless of the evidence for or against them.
But that's totally @rse about face. If you or your opinions can't stand up to being challenged then you've only got yourself (and your opinions) to blame. | |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 10:31 - Jun 22 with 996 views | Libero |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 10:16 - Jun 22 by itfcjoe |
Also true, and that is very difficult as I find in real life - but just writing people off when they aren't the foaming at the mouth guys you see 'defending war statues' doesn't help for me.
But this Government, and the those pulling the strings behind it from Vote Leave, have deliberately set out to divide the population, and drive the wedge further and further - this approach on here just helps to drive the wedge in my view |
That’s such a good point.
People are multifaceted and just because people have some dodgy opinions it doesn’t mean they’re inherently bad people. That’s something it took myself quite a long time to square away.
I’ve mentioned before my in-laws have some dodgy views and are regularly a bit bigoted, yet somehow they’re also some of the kindest and most generous people I’ve ever met.
We spent a lot of years having passive aggressive and combative binary discussions which didn’t get us anywhere and certainly didn’t improve our relationship.
However once I matured a bit and changed tact we not only got on a lot better but they would listen respectfully to what I had to say and have on occasions changed their minds because of it and of course I have reciprocated.
I still have to deal with them sending vaguely racist/homophobic/stupid memes via whatsapps, but I know that when I see them there will be a discussion about it and why X isn’t really okay or why some may not like Y.
We have really fostered a great mutual respect of each other, if not always a mutual understanding...
We’re all products of our environment and some people’s programming is somewhat more hardwired than others. There are also people who really sincerely struggle with change and react in an illogical and fearful manner when confronted with it.
It’s often trotted out that no one is born a racist which is true, but if you were to take a positive behavioural support model then when people acted like this you’d have to treat it under the pretext of “for every behaviour there is a reason”
There must be hoards of people like my in-laws very normal people who don’t consider themselves racist, wouldn’t dream of being racist to someone’s face but who indulge in a level of casual racism of varying degrees, be it subconsciously or as some form of confirmation bias, etc.
It doesn’t change the fact that engaging in such thoughts/actions/etc is racist but you’re probably not going to get through to those people by telling them they’re being racist and in reality these are the people you want to engage if things are going to change, not the goons throwing nazi salutes and “protecting” statues.
- I dunno, I’m just typing my stream of consciousness now and I’ve edited this post 6/7 times but hopefully it makes sense... [Post edited 22 Jun 2020 10:47]
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 10:36 - Jun 22 with 966 views | NewcyBlue |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:00 - Jun 22 by 26_Paz |
I don’t think it should be dealt with by breaching corona restrictions and committing criminal damage. Whether to ignore someone on social media or not is a more difficult one to answer! I.e the answer is not obvious! |
Disappointed by NewcyBlue 21 Jun 2020 17:17I’ve only just seen this
You’re more than welcome to present your argument, until you’ve had to stop someone from racially abusing the woman you love, I suggest you keep your opinion on the matter to yourself.
Over-reaction. You’re a bloody idiot. Your life hasn’t been made harder because of the colour of your skin or the country you are from, and you dare say the BLM is an over-reaction.
I would welcome introducing you to my son, just so I can “don’t grow up to be such a person, with such insular views.” Not that I ever think he would.
You’re a disgrace.
I stand by this. |  |
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| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 10:38 - Jun 22 with 958 views | NewcyBlue |
| Food for thought after yesterday’s lengthy discussion... on 08:12 - Jun 22 by itfcjoe |
This board is OTT, those threads do nothing for a more well rounded or balanced approaches on the board.
Some take more satisfaction in telling people they are racist than trying to talk them round a little bit and work out why they hold certain positions. I wouldn't say it's virtue signalling, but more just pious and it puts people off using the board. |
Problem is when you have people giving an opinion on something they have never experienced. On something like BLM, and they have never experienced racism. Their lives have never been made harder due to the colour of their skin, or where they are from, or by what name they call god.
Instead they give an opinion on it as if it was some sort of fact. | |
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