| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:14 - Dec 18 with 2695 views | J2BLUE |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 08:11 - Dec 18 by Herbivore |
They stood in an aisle and did a couple of chants then left when the police asked them to without any arrests being made. It's the very definition of a peaceful protest. Personally I don't think it's very effective but it's odd seeing people get worked up over it. |
I don't think this was peaceful. If we allow things like this then they have free reign to go into any business and disrupt it. No issue once they are outside but entering a business like that isn't peaceful IMO. |  |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:17 - Dec 18 with 2686 views | monytowbray |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:14 - Dec 18 by J2BLUE |
I don't think this was peaceful. If we allow things like this then they have free reign to go into any business and disrupt it. No issue once they are outside but entering a business like that isn't peaceful IMO. |
"Peaceful protest" literally means "Non violent". It was a peaceful protest. You can disagree with the premise of what they did by any means as it is your right to, but nothing changes the fact it was peaceful. [Post edited 18 Dec 2018 11:18]
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:24 - Dec 18 with 2673 views | J2BLUE |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 09:31 - Dec 18 by eireblue |
It isn't a simple answer.
It sort of depends on how someone responds to the article I posted.
I have posted a few articles like the one above that suggest plant based stuff is better for people, planet and animals.
I have suggested that if people that are interested in vegan stuff, they should read some vegan stuff, and understand what a veganism is about.
Will Ely_Blue turn vegan based on that, or the writings of Peter Singer, Yuval Noah Harari etc..
I hope J2BLUE doesn't mind me doing this, I know he is a decent chap, but as a convenient example, he stated "The trouble with people like them is they believe they are right 100%...."
Well, within the context of Ely_Blue's post, and within the limits of scientific knowledge, they are sufficiently near 100% correct to have a very valid point, that may well be worth acting upon in some way.
I don't think anyone will turn vegan by reading the article I posted.
Veganism has been growing, I think the new-ish DxE group is a result of that, not a cause.
A lot of people laugh a PETA campaigns. PETA have been around a long time, and more people are turning vegan. Not sure there is a direct cause and effect, but whatever has caused the growth in vegans, PETA will have been part of that in some way.
Give someone a scientific basis for being a vegan, typically a person will not suddenly turn vegan, they will doubt the science.
So, it is not a protest I would do.
But I do think many people really don't understand what veganism is about.
Using a possibly bad analogy, Suffragettes, didn't want more Suffragettes, they wanted all women to have a vote.
As a vegan, I don't care if you eat meat, I just don't want you to harm or kill an animal to do it.
And, with my limited powers of persuasion, I want there to be less animal suffering.
BTW I have a non-vegan partner, so my powers of persuasion are weak.
In my list of priorities, I put animal suffering above human ridicule.
So if a few vegans get laughed at, and it creates one more vegan, or even a person that eats slightly less meat, that is all upside.
I very much doubt that protest will turn a vegan into a meat eater.
I imagine that most of the people that will get outraged or will ridicule that protest, are not even close to becoming a vegan, and are also unlikely to read up on vegan stuff and follow where sciency stuff tends to point.
Most people, that seem reasonable, will understand that there have always been extremists, and just because a cause has an extremist following, doesn't make the cause wrong. Suffragettes as an example did use violence, greater than the DxE people did in that protest.
Today, we would all think that women should have a vote.
So in terms of what is important, that is less animal harm, I can't see that protest making things worse for an animal, it has a slim chance of effecting some change. So I can't see downside, there is possible upside.
But I wouldn't do that sort of protest.
A final thought
I am not sure when wanting less animal cruelty and suffering became "extreme".
So I am going to throw something back at you.
I think the following is worth a watch, and especially with respect to his last thought and the topic you raised.
I know does mean having to listen for the full 15 minutes. But hopefully you have the time
https://www.kinderworld.org/videos/talks/yuval-noah-harari-the-role-of-scientist
And I will read and respond to any comments you have about that video. It is just a bloke talking about science, ethics and animal rights, no gory stuff. |
Just to clarify my remark, I meant that they think they are totally right and any other opinion is invalid. They are unwilling to listen to any arguments and respect those arguments even if they disagree. I have no issue with people believing strongly in a cause but if they acknowledged the large grey area in the middle they could make some serious progress. I think of it as like an NFL game. They aren't interested in moving the chains and taking the smaller gains, they just fire a hail mary at the endzone. They might score a couple o touchdowns but I doubt they will ever win the game. | |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:27 - Dec 18 with 2666 views | J2BLUE |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:17 - Dec 18 by monytowbray |
"Peaceful protest" literally means "Non violent". It was a peaceful protest. You can disagree with the premise of what they did by any means as it is your right to, but nothing changes the fact it was peaceful. [Post edited 18 Dec 2018 11:18]
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Fair enough, poor choice of word. Just wrong though IMO. Going into a legal business to disrupt it isn't on. Just my opinion. | |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:44 - Dec 18 with 2653 views | monytowbray |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:27 - Dec 18 by J2BLUE |
Fair enough, poor choice of word. Just wrong though IMO. Going into a legal business to disrupt it isn't on. Just my opinion. |
What about workers who strike?
If we took that opinion on board and made it the standard norm for protesting we'd never change anything nor would we have many of the progressive rights we have now. | |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:48 - Dec 18 with 2646 views | monytowbray |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:24 - Dec 18 by J2BLUE |
Just to clarify my remark, I meant that they think they are totally right and any other opinion is invalid. They are unwilling to listen to any arguments and respect those arguments even if they disagree. I have no issue with people believing strongly in a cause but if they acknowledged the large grey area in the middle they could make some serious progress. I think of it as like an NFL game. They aren't interested in moving the chains and taking the smaller gains, they just fire a hail mary at the endzone. They might score a couple o touchdowns but I doubt they will ever win the game. |
Haven't we already had this debate though? And I'm sure you did say you understand why a vegan does not have to respect the choice to meat based on the principle itself?
What are we supposed to say? "I literally disagree with an innocent animal dying for food but I'm 100% in favour of you doing it"? It's not a live-and-let-live debate based on personal non-impactful things like a favourite colour or flavor of crisps, it's a choice that clearly has a right and wrong answer in the view of many, even those who partake in the wrong answer. [Post edited 18 Dec 2018 11:48]
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:48 - Dec 18 with 2643 views | J2BLUE |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:44 - Dec 18 by monytowbray |
What about workers who strike?
If we took that opinion on board and made it the standard norm for protesting we'd never change anything nor would we have many of the progressive rights we have now. |
Hmm, maybe. Not sure if that's a fair comparison but happy to back down because I don't really care that much and have better things to do  | |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:51 - Dec 18 with 2639 views | monytowbray |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:48 - Dec 18 by J2BLUE |
Hmm, maybe. Not sure if that's a fair comparison but happy to back down because I don't really care that much and have better things to do |
I just find it odd that of all the strikes and protests that do much more damage to businesses financially than a few people peacefully blocking an aisle for a few minutes this would be the problematic one suddenly. And that's a general comment on the thread, not a dig at you. | |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:55 - Dec 18 with 2626 views | J2BLUE |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:48 - Dec 18 by monytowbray |
Haven't we already had this debate though? And I'm sure you did say you understand why a vegan does not have to respect the choice to meat based on the principle itself?
What are we supposed to say? "I literally disagree with an innocent animal dying for food but I'm 100% in favour of you doing it"? It's not a live-and-let-live debate based on personal non-impactful things like a favourite colour or flavor of crisps, it's a choice that clearly has a right and wrong answer in the view of many, even those who partake in the wrong answer. [Post edited 18 Dec 2018 11:48]
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I did say that. They don't have to respect eating meat. I just meant if they were willing to give a little ground they might make a lot more progress. | |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:56 - Dec 18 with 2618 views | J2BLUE |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:51 - Dec 18 by monytowbray |
I just find it odd that of all the strikes and protests that do much more damage to businesses financially than a few people peacefully blocking an aisle for a few minutes this would be the problematic one suddenly. And that's a general comment on the thread, not a dig at you. |
To be clear, I wouldn't like this if it was any other group. It's not that it's vegans. I have no problem with vegans in the street or outside places like Waitrose.
Now I really am out. | |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 12:08 - Dec 18 with 2601 views | jaseitfc |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 08:52 - Dec 18 by monytowbray |
A lot of people apparently. Snowflakes. |
One thing definitely worse than preachy vegans posts are posts by carnivores designed to get a rise out of vegans!
FFS guys were bottom of the league and brexit is coming! And when it's here well all have to be Vegans because everything you like ends on March 29th and you all deserve it for voting for it!!!
Where's my heel heat?? |  | | |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 12:12 - Dec 18 with 2596 views | jaseitfc |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:56 - Dec 18 by J2BLUE |
To be clear, I wouldn't like this if it was any other group. It's not that it's vegans. I have no problem with vegans in the street or outside places like Waitrose.
Now I really am out. |
Our version of the yellow jackets in London blocked an ambulance on an emergency call ! Way to go lads ! Knobbers | | | |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 13:47 - Dec 18 with 2542 views | solemio |
Am I over-simplifying in wondering whether if everyone is vegan this will mean the demise of turkeys, cows, chickens, pigs? They will presumably become extinct. Sheep may survive for their wool, unless using their wool is against vegan principles in some way I do not understand. | | | |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 13:50 - Dec 18 with 2537 views | m14_blue |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 09:31 - Dec 18 by eireblue |
It isn't a simple answer.
It sort of depends on how someone responds to the article I posted.
I have posted a few articles like the one above that suggest plant based stuff is better for people, planet and animals.
I have suggested that if people that are interested in vegan stuff, they should read some vegan stuff, and understand what a veganism is about.
Will Ely_Blue turn vegan based on that, or the writings of Peter Singer, Yuval Noah Harari etc..
I hope J2BLUE doesn't mind me doing this, I know he is a decent chap, but as a convenient example, he stated "The trouble with people like them is they believe they are right 100%...."
Well, within the context of Ely_Blue's post, and within the limits of scientific knowledge, they are sufficiently near 100% correct to have a very valid point, that may well be worth acting upon in some way.
I don't think anyone will turn vegan by reading the article I posted.
Veganism has been growing, I think the new-ish DxE group is a result of that, not a cause.
A lot of people laugh a PETA campaigns. PETA have been around a long time, and more people are turning vegan. Not sure there is a direct cause and effect, but whatever has caused the growth in vegans, PETA will have been part of that in some way.
Give someone a scientific basis for being a vegan, typically a person will not suddenly turn vegan, they will doubt the science.
So, it is not a protest I would do.
But I do think many people really don't understand what veganism is about.
Using a possibly bad analogy, Suffragettes, didn't want more Suffragettes, they wanted all women to have a vote.
As a vegan, I don't care if you eat meat, I just don't want you to harm or kill an animal to do it.
And, with my limited powers of persuasion, I want there to be less animal suffering.
BTW I have a non-vegan partner, so my powers of persuasion are weak.
In my list of priorities, I put animal suffering above human ridicule.
So if a few vegans get laughed at, and it creates one more vegan, or even a person that eats slightly less meat, that is all upside.
I very much doubt that protest will turn a vegan into a meat eater.
I imagine that most of the people that will get outraged or will ridicule that protest, are not even close to becoming a vegan, and are also unlikely to read up on vegan stuff and follow where sciency stuff tends to point.
Most people, that seem reasonable, will understand that there have always been extremists, and just because a cause has an extremist following, doesn't make the cause wrong. Suffragettes as an example did use violence, greater than the DxE people did in that protest.
Today, we would all think that women should have a vote.
So in terms of what is important, that is less animal harm, I can't see that protest making things worse for an animal, it has a slim chance of effecting some change. So I can't see downside, there is possible upside.
But I wouldn't do that sort of protest.
A final thought
I am not sure when wanting less animal cruelty and suffering became "extreme".
So I am going to throw something back at you.
I think the following is worth a watch, and especially with respect to his last thought and the topic you raised.
I know does mean having to listen for the full 15 minutes. But hopefully you have the time
https://www.kinderworld.org/videos/talks/yuval-noah-harari-the-role-of-scientist
And I will read and respond to any comments you have about that video. It is just a bloke talking about science, ethics and animal rights, no gory stuff. |
A considered response, as always.
Cheers | | | |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 13:55 - Dec 18 with 2533 views | DanTheMan |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 13:47 - Dec 18 by solemio |
Am I over-simplifying in wondering whether if everyone is vegan this will mean the demise of turkeys, cows, chickens, pigs? They will presumably become extinct. Sheep may survive for their wool, unless using their wool is against vegan principles in some way I do not understand. |
Probably not extinct, but there would be far, far less of them.
The counter argument being that currently they are only bred to be used so it's not like animals are missing out of something by not being industrially bred.
And yes, wool is not vegan as far as I'm aware. Same with things like honey I think. |  |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 14:56 - Dec 18 with 2501 views | Ely_Blue |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 09:31 - Dec 18 by eireblue |
It isn't a simple answer.
It sort of depends on how someone responds to the article I posted.
I have posted a few articles like the one above that suggest plant based stuff is better for people, planet and animals.
I have suggested that if people that are interested in vegan stuff, they should read some vegan stuff, and understand what a veganism is about.
Will Ely_Blue turn vegan based on that, or the writings of Peter Singer, Yuval Noah Harari etc..
I hope J2BLUE doesn't mind me doing this, I know he is a decent chap, but as a convenient example, he stated "The trouble with people like them is they believe they are right 100%...."
Well, within the context of Ely_Blue's post, and within the limits of scientific knowledge, they are sufficiently near 100% correct to have a very valid point, that may well be worth acting upon in some way.
I don't think anyone will turn vegan by reading the article I posted.
Veganism has been growing, I think the new-ish DxE group is a result of that, not a cause.
A lot of people laugh a PETA campaigns. PETA have been around a long time, and more people are turning vegan. Not sure there is a direct cause and effect, but whatever has caused the growth in vegans, PETA will have been part of that in some way.
Give someone a scientific basis for being a vegan, typically a person will not suddenly turn vegan, they will doubt the science.
So, it is not a protest I would do.
But I do think many people really don't understand what veganism is about.
Using a possibly bad analogy, Suffragettes, didn't want more Suffragettes, they wanted all women to have a vote.
As a vegan, I don't care if you eat meat, I just don't want you to harm or kill an animal to do it.
And, with my limited powers of persuasion, I want there to be less animal suffering.
BTW I have a non-vegan partner, so my powers of persuasion are weak.
In my list of priorities, I put animal suffering above human ridicule.
So if a few vegans get laughed at, and it creates one more vegan, or even a person that eats slightly less meat, that is all upside.
I very much doubt that protest will turn a vegan into a meat eater.
I imagine that most of the people that will get outraged or will ridicule that protest, are not even close to becoming a vegan, and are also unlikely to read up on vegan stuff and follow where sciency stuff tends to point.
Most people, that seem reasonable, will understand that there have always been extremists, and just because a cause has an extremist following, doesn't make the cause wrong. Suffragettes as an example did use violence, greater than the DxE people did in that protest.
Today, we would all think that women should have a vote.
So in terms of what is important, that is less animal harm, I can't see that protest making things worse for an animal, it has a slim chance of effecting some change. So I can't see downside, there is possible upside.
But I wouldn't do that sort of protest.
A final thought
I am not sure when wanting less animal cruelty and suffering became "extreme".
So I am going to throw something back at you.
I think the following is worth a watch, and especially with respect to his last thought and the topic you raised.
I know does mean having to listen for the full 15 minutes. But hopefully you have the time
https://www.kinderworld.org/videos/talks/yuval-noah-harari-the-role-of-scientist
And I will read and respond to any comments you have about that video. It is just a bloke talking about science, ethics and animal rights, no gory stuff. |
Thank you for coming back with some rational points, that is all I would ask of anyone.
No the article wouldn’t turn me vegan, as someone who works for a large Irish based food producer that has its fingers in many pies I know that the insights tell us there is an increas in meat reducers, in fact I have seen some very good products produced by us that are close in texture to meat but are entirely plant based.
Part of the wider consumer pieces that I have seen point to one of the main reasons people haven’t previously turned vegan or reduced the amount of meat they eat is that they actually like the taste and texture of meat and any “meat alternatives” just don’t cut it.
Part of the reason there is an increase in meat reducers is that there are starting to become some creditable alternatives. Maybe some of those involved in these campaigns would be better to spend their time and energy in getting behind some of the alternatives rather than trying the scaremongering tactics that just get people’s backs up. |  |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 15:26 - Dec 18 with 2490 views | GeoffSentence |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 11:17 - Dec 18 by monytowbray |
"Peaceful protest" literally means "Non violent". It was a peaceful protest. You can disagree with the premise of what they did by any means as it is your right to, but nothing changes the fact it was peaceful. [Post edited 18 Dec 2018 11:18]
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They made a bit of noise, so by definition it wasn't peaceful. |  |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 15:29 - Dec 18 with 2490 views | bluelagos |
Is the answer because they care deeply about animal welfare / exploitation and the impact of eating meat has on the environment when there are easily accessible alternatives to meat?
Alternative question might be why do so many meat eaters go so over the top in questioning the belief systems / actions of Vegans? |  |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 15:46 - Dec 18 with 2462 views | Ryorry |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 14:56 - Dec 18 by Ely_Blue |
Thank you for coming back with some rational points, that is all I would ask of anyone.
No the article wouldn’t turn me vegan, as someone who works for a large Irish based food producer that has its fingers in many pies I know that the insights tell us there is an increas in meat reducers, in fact I have seen some very good products produced by us that are close in texture to meat but are entirely plant based.
Part of the wider consumer pieces that I have seen point to one of the main reasons people haven’t previously turned vegan or reduced the amount of meat they eat is that they actually like the taste and texture of meat and any “meat alternatives” just don’t cut it.
Part of the reason there is an increase in meat reducers is that there are starting to become some creditable alternatives. Maybe some of those involved in these campaigns would be better to spend their time and energy in getting behind some of the alternatives rather than trying the scaremongering tactics that just get people’s backs up. |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 16:28 - Dec 18 with 2422 views | jaseitfc |
The word vegan just makes me crave meat now honestly...
They have an adverse effect on me, & I'm not saying it to take the P
If they all took the Jermain Defoe route they might stand a chance winning me over but they get no where with the moral crusade route, mainly as I don't view animals in the same way they do - sorry guys [Post edited 18 Dec 2018 16:33]
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 16:36 - Dec 18 with 2409 views | monytowbray |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 15:26 - Dec 18 by GeoffSentence |
They made a bit of noise, so by definition it wasn't peaceful. |
You seem to have "peaceful" and "silent" confused. | |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 16:40 - Dec 18 with 2399 views | monytowbray |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 16:28 - Dec 18 by jaseitfc |
The word vegan just makes me crave meat now honestly...
They have an adverse effect on me, & I'm not saying it to take the P
If they all took the Jermain Defoe route they might stand a chance winning me over but they get no where with the moral crusade route, mainly as I don't view animals in the same way they do - sorry guys [Post edited 18 Dec 2018 16:33]
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Why is it our job to convert you? All we can do is present the evidence and the reasoning. You're a grown adult perfectly capable of making your own choices. If the evidence bothers you to the point of wanting to eat meat perhaps you should ask yourself why that is rather than shifting the blame onto the other party?
I don't agree and/or like with a lot of people who stand for perfectly decent things but I'm not going to go out of my way to do something horrible out of spite. | |
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| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 16:48 - Dec 18 with 2383 views | jaseitfc |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 16:40 - Dec 18 by monytowbray |
Why is it our job to convert you? All we can do is present the evidence and the reasoning. You're a grown adult perfectly capable of making your own choices. If the evidence bothers you to the point of wanting to eat meat perhaps you should ask yourself why that is rather than shifting the blame onto the other party?
I don't agree and/or like with a lot of people who stand for perfectly decent things but I'm not going to go out of my way to do something horrible out of spite. |
It's no one's job to convert me but presumably that is the aim of those going into a waitrose to raise awareness & this lead to persuading people not to eat meat; what's the point of promoting it if you dont have an aim to convert people?
It's not out of spite - it's simple word association , it's how my weird mind works. The word Olympics makes me think of McDonald's due to constant linkage of McDonald's with the Olympics over the years- I know unfortunately link the word vegan with meat, and its not out of spite its just a different philosophical view - I don't see animals the way you do, but at least I'll admit it rather than claim I do care. | | | |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 16:49 - Dec 18 with 2381 views | GeoffSentence |
| Why are vegans getting more and more preachy....? on 16:36 - Dec 18 by monytowbray |
You seem to have "peaceful" and "silent" confused. |
No, nay, thrice nay.
Peaceful is a synonym of quiet.
See here.
peaceful
/ˈpiËsfÊŠl,ˈpiËsf(É™)l/
adjective
adjective: peaceful
1.
free from disturbance; tranquil.
"his peaceful mood vanished"
synonyms: tranquil, calm, restful, pleasant, quiet, still, relaxing, soothing, sleepy, silent, soundless, hushed, noiseless, undisturbed, untroubled, private, secluded, solitary,
So if it was noisy it wasn't 'peaceful'. | |
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