| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:12 - Dec 5 with 408 views | StokieBlue |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:09 - Dec 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I realise that and just wondered if you had a settled view. |
I never proposed they should be turned away, that would be awful.
What was being discussed was vaccine mandates. If a mandate was in place the situation of them being turned away shouldn't ever need to be considered as they are highly unlikely to need ICU treatment.
It's going to become a serious issue for the government (as it is currently across Europe) if ICU's are completely full of the unvaccinated. Do we lockdown to lower the ICU levels or do we mandate vaccines?
Which is fairer for the majority? What's your opinion?
SB |  | |  |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:24 - Dec 5 with 380 views | bluelagos |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:07 - Dec 5 by StokieBlue |
If you read the thread back it was a hypothetical scenario.
The latest point was to highlight to BL that doctors are already saying something is happening which he didn't think would be the case.
Given that vaccines are free, the socio-economic status of a person is rather irrelevant isn't it?
SB [Post edited 5 Dec 2021 10:09]
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What I don't think will happen is that the ICUs will be over run and that the doctors will then have to choose who to give emergency treatment to (the question posed) as I presume the govt would impose a lockdown and/or tighter restrictions before that scenario developed.
The story as I understand it, is that there are upto a 1/3 of ICU beds with unvaccinated patients in. I don't think they are facing decisions of who gets emergency treatment (which was the hypothetical) yet thankfully.
Having said all that, I don't believe it appropriate, ever, for doctors to ration emergency treatment based on anything other than clinical need. I don't think we should refuse treatment to those who aren't vaccinated, even if I disagree with their choice/decision not to get the jab.
If we are going to introduce "Non clinical" judgements into rationing health care, based on what we perceive as the "deserving vs non deserving" - then that fundamentally goes against everything the NHS was created for - namely to provide universal health care for all.
I can't really believe it is even a discussion point tbh. [Post edited 5 Dec 2021 10:25]
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| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:31 - Dec 5 with 360 views | bluelagos |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:12 - Dec 5 by StokieBlue |
I never proposed they should be turned away, that would be awful.
What was being discussed was vaccine mandates. If a mandate was in place the situation of them being turned away shouldn't ever need to be considered as they are highly unlikely to need ICU treatment.
It's going to become a serious issue for the government (as it is currently across Europe) if ICU's are completely full of the unvaccinated. Do we lockdown to lower the ICU levels or do we mandate vaccines?
Which is fairer for the majority? What's your opinion?
SB |
"...if ICU's are completely full of the unvaccinated. Do we lockdown to lower the ICU levels or do we mandate vaccines?"
So if we have a choice of mandating vaccinations or another lockdown - that's a sh1tty choice but it is one we could theoretically face, accept that.
For me, I'd opt for tighter restrictions first (WFH, rule of six) and then if still faced with a full lock down or mandated vaccinations I'd go for the full lockdown before I criminalised people for choosing not to be vaccinated. | |
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| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:33 - Dec 5 with 359 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:12 - Dec 5 by StokieBlue |
I never proposed they should be turned away, that would be awful.
What was being discussed was vaccine mandates. If a mandate was in place the situation of them being turned away shouldn't ever need to be considered as they are highly unlikely to need ICU treatment.
It's going to become a serious issue for the government (as it is currently across Europe) if ICU's are completely full of the unvaccinated. Do we lockdown to lower the ICU levels or do we mandate vaccines?
Which is fairer for the majority? What's your opinion?
SB |
It would have to be lockdown as compulsion will fail....already people in Europe are paying others to be vaccinated in their place. Never mind the divisive consequences of a government going down this line.
As an aside I am not sure that 'fairness for the majority' has ever been a guiding principal in society!! |  |
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| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:40 - Dec 5 with 352 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:33 - Dec 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It would have to be lockdown as compulsion will fail....already people in Europe are paying others to be vaccinated in their place. Never mind the divisive consequences of a government going down this line.
As an aside I am not sure that 'fairness for the majority' has ever been a guiding principal in society!! |
Totally against compulsory medical procedures personally but I could see an argument if it were a cure, but it's not. |  |
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| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:41 - Dec 5 with 350 views | StokieBlue |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:24 - Dec 5 by bluelagos |
What I don't think will happen is that the ICUs will be over run and that the doctors will then have to choose who to give emergency treatment to (the question posed) as I presume the govt would impose a lockdown and/or tighter restrictions before that scenario developed.
The story as I understand it, is that there are upto a 1/3 of ICU beds with unvaccinated patients in. I don't think they are facing decisions of who gets emergency treatment (which was the hypothetical) yet thankfully.
Having said all that, I don't believe it appropriate, ever, for doctors to ration emergency treatment based on anything other than clinical need. I don't think we should refuse treatment to those who aren't vaccinated, even if I disagree with their choice/decision not to get the jab.
If we are going to introduce "Non clinical" judgements into rationing health care, based on what we perceive as the "deserving vs non deserving" - then that fundamentally goes against everything the NHS was created for - namely to provide universal health care for all.
I can't really believe it is even a discussion point tbh. [Post edited 5 Dec 2021 10:25]
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Nobody has mentioned rationing healthcare or refusing treatment.
SB | | | |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:42 - Dec 5 with 349 views | StokieBlue |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:40 - Dec 5 by Lord_Lucan |
Totally against compulsory medical procedures personally but I could see an argument if it were a cure, but it's not. |
It's pretty much a cure from dying for the majority [*].
SB
[*] At least until we know more about Omicron. | | | |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:44 - Dec 5 with 342 views | bluelagos |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:41 - Dec 5 by StokieBlue |
Nobody has mentioned rationing healthcare or refusing treatment.
SB |
Wasn't that your "scenario"?
(appreciate it was a hypothetical and not a position) | |
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| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:48 - Dec 5 with 330 views | StokieBlue |
| Mandatory jabs, monthly fines on 10:44 - Dec 5 by bluelagos |
Wasn't that your "scenario"?
(appreciate it was a hypothetical and not a position) |
It wasn't, no.
"Playing devils advocate (and not voicing an opinion either way), lets say someone you know requires admission to the ICU but there are no beds to treat them because they are full of unvaccinated covid patients, patients that have an extremely high chance of not being there if they are vaccinated.
How would you feel then? Their actions are directly affecting you and probably doing harm to someone you know - is that more or less unfair than making them have a jab?
SB"
The scenario was is it more unfair to refuse someone treatment because the ICU's are full of unvaccinated covid patients or to make people have the vaccine so that the scenario never happens.
SB | | | |
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