| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC 18:33 - Jul 12 with 3580 views | Bogblue |
First time this has ever happened?
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| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 22:06 - Jul 12 with 822 views | gazzer1999 |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 21:58 - Jul 12 by Mullet |
Not at all, the whole crux of her power and existence is as part of checks and balances but how much worse would someone have to be to see action?
I don't like FPTP either but I don't pretend it's not real or binding. Presuming that is rather odd. |
None of the two main parties will ever change FPTP as without it neither would end up with a majority. Personally I prefer to know who I am voting for not decided for me in some grubby backroom as with PR. Don't get me started on the alternative vote either, and as we know that was rejected when given the option. |  | | |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 22:25 - Jul 12 with 797 views | Bogblue |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 19:58 - Jul 12 by GlasgowBlue |
I have some sympathy with the government on their stance.
This is shameless politicking from Labour by including Johnson as part of the VOC. Completely unnecessary.
He's resigned as Tory leader and a contest is underway to chose his successor, who will become PM when they win.
Had Labour submitted a standard VOC then convention would be that the government had to accept a debate n the motion.
It's very un-Starmer-like as he is usually a very serious politician who doesn't play these silly games.
[Post edited 12 Jul 2022 20:04]
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'Shameless politicking' is what the tories have been doing for the last 10+ years, and you ignoring that fact doesn't say much for you. It's understandable that Starmer's taken just one leaf out of their 10,000 page book on it.
Meanwhile he has *not* resigned as PM, only as tory leader, so he's still officially 'in office', not just as a lame duck but as one with its gizzards out, both legs tied, & the oven door shut on him by his own cabinet, MPs, and the thinking sector of the electorate, while absolutely no important decisions re running the country are made. | | | |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 22:51 - Jul 12 with 752 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 22:06 - Jul 12 by gazzer1999 |
None of the two main parties will ever change FPTP as without it neither would end up with a majority. Personally I prefer to know who I am voting for not decided for me in some grubby backroom as with PR. Don't get me started on the alternative vote either, and as we know that was rejected when given the option. |
"not decided for me in some grubby backroom as with PR"
methinks you do not understand FPTP. By your reasoning, you are voting for the national party and there is only a point in voting for one of the two that might form a Government (except FPTP means that in many parts of the country that is a wasted or pointless vote under FPTP).
The last grubby backroom that decided our Government contained a Conservative Party bribing the DUP.
The previous grubby backroom that decided our Government contained a Conservative Party with the LibDems.
Both were quite recent. Both were directly from FPTP.
What you really like is a system that is likely to return the particular Government you like regardless that it is in no way the Government of choice of well over 50% of the electorate. |  |
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| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 22:57 - Jul 12 with 730 views | eireblue |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 21:51 - Jul 12 by gazzer1999 |
Accept that opinions are like backsides, everybody has one, admittedly some on their shoulders. |
Opinions and lies are different things. |  | | |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 23:17 - Jul 12 with 705 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 19:58 - Jul 12 by GlasgowBlue |
I have some sympathy with the government on their stance.
This is shameless politicking from Labour by including Johnson as part of the VOC. Completely unnecessary.
He's resigned as Tory leader and a contest is underway to chose his successor, who will become PM when they win.
Had Labour submitted a standard VOC then convention would be that the government had to accept a debate n the motion.
It's very un-Starmer-like as he is usually a very serious politician who doesn't play these silly games.
[Post edited 12 Jul 2022 20:04]
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"shameless politicking... usually a very serious politician who doesn't play these silly games."
WTAF?!? After all your years of "shameless politicking" - and defending it as what needs to be done... plus telling us about Tory Central Office actively looking for dirt to dig... you have the brass balls to disagree with it now!?!
The hypocrisy dial just smashed through the top of the chart and made a dash for freedom. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 23:27 - Jul 12 with 689 views | HARRY10 |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 22:51 - Jul 12 by Nthsuffolkblue |
"not decided for me in some grubby backroom as with PR"
methinks you do not understand FPTP. By your reasoning, you are voting for the national party and there is only a point in voting for one of the two that might form a Government (except FPTP means that in many parts of the country that is a wasted or pointless vote under FPTP).
The last grubby backroom that decided our Government contained a Conservative Party bribing the DUP.
The previous grubby backroom that decided our Government contained a Conservative Party with the LibDems.
Both were quite recent. Both were directly from FPTP.
What you really like is a system that is likely to return the particular Government you like regardless that it is in no way the Government of choice of well over 50% of the electorate. |
That is just silly.
That FTP delivered a 'grubby deal' in 201O cannot distract from the fact that it will always involve that reality with PR. as no party in the UK will achieve 50%
And as all governments decisions are binary, then it is the larger party in any coalition that decides. - just as with 2010
And in 2015 the Tories put a few weird policies in that could be easily traded away were there to be a coalition - the actual words of a Tory MP
Whilst, like spiritual mediums, PR fantasists can be dismissed as harmless cranks, they actually pose a great threat. Mediums prey on the vulnerable, and often impede any grieving process. Much as with the PR peddlers, praying on those concerned about democracy.
From the outside PR looks better, but actually removes very vital layer of democracy (local accountability), and also hands the decision on who should govern to a handful of politicians.
Yes, I am aware that the not too bright will now claim that I am an avid supporter of FTP. I am not. I would better have that we have a more informed electorate. That MPs directly challenge lies and liars. That our Parliament has the means to actively do that. And a suspension should follow, with no pay either. No consultancies (and wife either).
So if you are going to peddle the PR line then at least do it honestly, as it was similar lies and mistruths that saw brexit inflicted upon us. | | | |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 23:56 - Jul 12 with 668 views | WicklowBlue |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 23:27 - Jul 12 by HARRY10 |
That is just silly.
That FTP delivered a 'grubby deal' in 201O cannot distract from the fact that it will always involve that reality with PR. as no party in the UK will achieve 50%
And as all governments decisions are binary, then it is the larger party in any coalition that decides. - just as with 2010
And in 2015 the Tories put a few weird policies in that could be easily traded away were there to be a coalition - the actual words of a Tory MP
Whilst, like spiritual mediums, PR fantasists can be dismissed as harmless cranks, they actually pose a great threat. Mediums prey on the vulnerable, and often impede any grieving process. Much as with the PR peddlers, praying on those concerned about democracy.
From the outside PR looks better, but actually removes very vital layer of democracy (local accountability), and also hands the decision on who should govern to a handful of politicians.
Yes, I am aware that the not too bright will now claim that I am an avid supporter of FTP. I am not. I would better have that we have a more informed electorate. That MPs directly challenge lies and liars. That our Parliament has the means to actively do that. And a suspension should follow, with no pay either. No consultancies (and wife either).
So if you are going to peddle the PR line then at least do it honestly, as it was similar lies and mistruths that saw brexit inflicted upon us. |
Surely some of the problems we are seeing in the US and UK are due to single parties getting large majorities and no means of holding them accountable.
Can't agree that PR removes a vital layer of democracy, that's a big big leap. In fact imho it's a better form of democracy as all my voting preferences get a voice as needed.
PR has worked well for Ireland, despite rainbow coalitions or the current incubents. |  | | |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 00:26 - Jul 13 with 644 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 19:58 - Jul 12 by GlasgowBlue |
I have some sympathy with the government on their stance.
This is shameless politicking from Labour by including Johnson as part of the VOC. Completely unnecessary.
He's resigned as Tory leader and a contest is underway to chose his successor, who will become PM when they win.
Had Labour submitted a standard VOC then convention would be that the government had to accept a debate n the motion.
It's very un-Starmer-like as he is usually a very serious politician who doesn't play these silly games.
[Post edited 12 Jul 2022 20:04]
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I completely disagree. He has had to resign in disgrace because he has repeatedly lied to Parliament, blocked House Committee reports, appointed a known sexual predator to be Deputy Chief Whip responsible for welfare, changed the Ministerial Code, refused to take the advice of Ethics advisors, and broken a law which he passed and explained to the nation in multiple Press Conferences.
And he, personally, no longer has the confidence of the majority of Tory MPs. In fact the majority of Tory MPs have openly questioned his character and fitness for office.
And yet he refuses to step down as Prime Minister.
It is not appropriate for him to continue. The Labour Vote of No Confidence recognises that, and seeks to end this sh!t show once and for all. If Raab were to deputise then the Motion would be withdrawn.
The only cheap politicking here is coming from you. | | | |
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| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 00:35 - Jul 13 with 640 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 20:18 - Jul 12 by GlasgowBlue |
As you well know, we don't vote for a President. We vote for a constituency MP. The party with the most constituency MP's form a government for a minimum of five years and the leader of that party becomes PM. A change of leader does not mean a general election.
If it did then in my lifetime we'd have had a general election in 1976 when Wilson resigned, another in 1990 when Thatcher was forced to step down, another in 2007 when Blair got the shove, another in 2016 when Cameron went after the referendum result and another when May realised the game was up.
In each of those occasions the incumbent stayed on until the election of a new leader.
And various political parties have had massive leads in the polls. Haven't had a general election halfway through a parliament based on opinion poll leads.
But we are straying from my point. It was a motion put forward purely for political capital. Something you often claim to dislike.
If they were serious then Labour should have put in a VOC motion on the many occasions when Johnson was found to have lied or cheated. Not when he was halfway out of the door. [Post edited 12 Jul 2022 20:20]
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You are right, we don't elect a President. The "public mandate" isn't Johnson's. Now, remind us of how many Constituency MPs support Johnson right now? The PM is invited to serve by Her Majesty on the understanding that they command a majority in the House of Commons.
Johnson doesn't.
He should go immediately. He won't, so this Vote of No Confidence is the only mechanism open to Starmer to force the issue. | | | |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 07:56 - Jul 13 with 560 views | Churchman |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 20:04 - Jul 12 by Plums |
The silly games are the Tory party navel gazing for two months whilst the nation goes to hell in a handcart. This is their mess and nobody else’s.
Johnson should be nowhere near Downing St at this stage.
The country needs a general election and a new PM in 25 days, not a (blue) rinse and repeat that takes two months. |
I fully agree with this.
I also think Labour has every right to call a VNOC if it wishes and for Johnson to stop it, if true, is wrong. Surely, he should be standing by his record and his honest government with nothing to hide so what’s the problem? Errrr
We need an election now for many reasons, not least that having no effective government while a madman ravages a country in Central Europe and the economy dives down the pan. It is not a great time for this farce. [Post edited 13 Jul 2022 8:30]
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| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 08:54 - Jul 13 with 546 views | GeoffSentence |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 19:58 - Jul 12 by GlasgowBlue |
I have some sympathy with the government on their stance.
This is shameless politicking from Labour by including Johnson as part of the VOC. Completely unnecessary.
He's resigned as Tory leader and a contest is underway to chose his successor, who will become PM when they win.
Had Labour submitted a standard VOC then convention would be that the government had to accept a debate n the motion.
It's very un-Starmer-like as he is usually a very serious politician who doesn't play these silly games.
[Post edited 12 Jul 2022 20:04]
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Johnson was right to block it because it goes against the political norms? |  |
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| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 09:35 - Jul 13 with 513 views | Kievthegreat |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 19:58 - Jul 12 by GlasgowBlue |
I have some sympathy with the government on their stance.
This is shameless politicking from Labour by including Johnson as part of the VOC. Completely unnecessary.
He's resigned as Tory leader and a contest is underway to chose his successor, who will become PM when they win.
Had Labour submitted a standard VOC then convention would be that the government had to accept a debate n the motion.
It's very un-Starmer-like as he is usually a very serious politician who doesn't play these silly games.
[Post edited 12 Jul 2022 20:04]
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Regurgitating Tory attack lines and nonsense.
There is part of a VONC that is statutory so that it has the necessary effect of removing the current government, but there is no requirement for that to be the only wording included. Several VONC go beyond the statutory statement, some even refer explicitly to the incumbent PM.
It is not reasonable or acceptable for the government to rewrite the motions opposing them. |  | | |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 09:42 - Jul 13 with 510 views | Radlett_blue |
Johnson is leaving as PM. This is because he has lost the support of his MPs and the people. A personal vote of no confidence is a near pointless way of trying to grind him into the dust. Whether he leaves office now or in September is near irrelevant so debating this is the sort of political grandstanding which wastes so much of the Commons' supposedly valuable time. |  |
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| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 10:11 - Jul 13 with 483 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 09:42 - Jul 13 by Radlett_blue |
Johnson is leaving as PM. This is because he has lost the support of his MPs and the people. A personal vote of no confidence is a near pointless way of trying to grind him into the dust. Whether he leaves office now or in September is near irrelevant so debating this is the sort of political grandstanding which wastes so much of the Commons' supposedly valuable time. |
How is it near irrelevant? He can still affect things as PM - despite his own party having no confidence in him, let alone the country. If he'd just gone as he should there wouldn't be a vote of no confidence.
This isn't "political grandstanding" - this is literally "we don't have confidence in this man still running things" and it's entirely just. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 10:17 - Jul 13 with 480 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 09:42 - Jul 13 by Radlett_blue |
Johnson is leaving as PM. This is because he has lost the support of his MPs and the people. A personal vote of no confidence is a near pointless way of trying to grind him into the dust. Whether he leaves office now or in September is near irrelevant so debating this is the sort of political grandstanding which wastes so much of the Commons' supposedly valuable time. |
There is nothing pointless about MPs standing up to somebody who has repeatedly lied to Parliament, held back reports which Parliamentary Committees wished to publish, increased the number of laws passed by Ministerial fiat without proper Parliamentary scrutiny, removed the Judicial Review process for Ministerial decisiions, broken the Ministerial Code on multiple occasions, and illegally prorogued Parliament, forcing the Queen to act unlawfully.
Rees-Mogg and Co trumpeted that Brexit would restore Parliamentary Sovereignty, but every one of the above have diminished Parliament and expanded Executive control.
Having been complicit with this shocking power-grab for several years, it is time for Tory MPs to make it clear that a line is being drawn, that this will never be tolerated again, and to assert Parliamentary Sovereignty by making it clear that they have kicked out the Prime Minister who has disgraced the office. | | | |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 10:45 - Jul 13 with 469 views | Bogblue |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 10:17 - Jul 13 by ArnoldMoorhen |
There is nothing pointless about MPs standing up to somebody who has repeatedly lied to Parliament, held back reports which Parliamentary Committees wished to publish, increased the number of laws passed by Ministerial fiat without proper Parliamentary scrutiny, removed the Judicial Review process for Ministerial decisiions, broken the Ministerial Code on multiple occasions, and illegally prorogued Parliament, forcing the Queen to act unlawfully.
Rees-Mogg and Co trumpeted that Brexit would restore Parliamentary Sovereignty, but every one of the above have diminished Parliament and expanded Executive control.
Having been complicit with this shocking power-grab for several years, it is time for Tory MPs to make it clear that a line is being drawn, that this will never be tolerated again, and to assert Parliamentary Sovereignty by making it clear that they have kicked out the Prime Minister who has disgraced the office. |
Not just all of that (as if it weren't enough!) but now this, which I think Starmer had an inkling was coming and therefore made it not just a game-play but actually his duty as HM loyal opposition to ask for the VONC to hold Johnson to account
That may be the only way of doing it. Johnson's now busy trying to extend his web of corruption to shield himself from prosecution after he's no longer in office. Both shameful and shameless
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| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 11:51 - Jul 13 with 440 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Johnson's only gone & blocked the VONC on 23:27 - Jul 12 by HARRY10 |
That is just silly.
That FTP delivered a 'grubby deal' in 201O cannot distract from the fact that it will always involve that reality with PR. as no party in the UK will achieve 50%
And as all governments decisions are binary, then it is the larger party in any coalition that decides. - just as with 2010
And in 2015 the Tories put a few weird policies in that could be easily traded away were there to be a coalition - the actual words of a Tory MP
Whilst, like spiritual mediums, PR fantasists can be dismissed as harmless cranks, they actually pose a great threat. Mediums prey on the vulnerable, and often impede any grieving process. Much as with the PR peddlers, praying on those concerned about democracy.
From the outside PR looks better, but actually removes very vital layer of democracy (local accountability), and also hands the decision on who should govern to a handful of politicians.
Yes, I am aware that the not too bright will now claim that I am an avid supporter of FTP. I am not. I would better have that we have a more informed electorate. That MPs directly challenge lies and liars. That our Parliament has the means to actively do that. And a suspension should follow, with no pay either. No consultancies (and wife either).
So if you are going to peddle the PR line then at least do it honestly, as it was similar lies and mistruths that saw brexit inflicted upon us. |
What is this "local accountability" of which you speak? And why is it a "very vital layer" of democracy? Especially when that "local accountability" is based on arbitrary geographical divisions that can carve up the country in ways which suit whoever is building the boundaries?
Why is it virtually every other democracy in the world has some sort of PR for determining their national governments - are they all wrong?
And why should my anti-Tory vote in a very safe Tory seat mean less than an anti-Tory vote in marginal seat? Every single vote should have an impact on the makeup of the Government. If that means Govts are formed from coalitions then let's at least do it honestly - what's the point of a more informed electorate if they can't then act on that? For example, if someone who becomes better informed and wants to vote Green in a constituency where the Green candidate can't win - what's the the point of them being better informed, unless their Green vote is also taken into account nationally?
And if you're not an avid supporter of FPTP, what are you then? |  |
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