| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:20 - May 12 with 4688 views | StokieBlue |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:09 - May 12 by WeWereZombies |
Interesting, must be quite comforting for the relatives of mariners and passengers on shipping sunk by U-Boats during World War Two to know that their kin were not victims of direct action...
I don't know if you have noticed but Putin's game plan in Machiavellian terms is to forgo the Prince who rules by being both loved and feared bit and just make do with the residual rule by fear alone. |
My reply was more along the lines that you cited direct military action against the UK "archipelago" and then gave a numerous possible scenarios, none of which were direct action against the UK. Other posters also responded in a similar way given you cited direct action against these islands.
This reply is twisting my response in a rather unpleasant way, something which you never used to do.
SB |  | |  |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:25 - May 12 with 4679 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 14:20 - May 12 by giant_stow |
Out of interest, what do you/others think would happen if Russia lobbed a conventional missile into London?
How would we retaliate, if at all? |
It’d be the end of Russia. It won’t happen. |  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:26 - May 12 with 4678 views | WeWereZombies |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:20 - May 12 by StokieBlue |
My reply was more along the lines that you cited direct military action against the UK "archipelago" and then gave a numerous possible scenarios, none of which were direct action against the UK. Other posters also responded in a similar way given you cited direct action against these islands.
This reply is twisting my response in a rather unpleasant way, something which you never used to do.
SB |
Oh, for goodness sake. There are moves and counter moves going on all the time on the international stage. All I am trying to do is point out the danger of escalations in the military response, although the players may have no option but to change the approach in this grisly game of human chess. A bit of perspective and nous please.
[edit] By the way, the archipelago includes the island of Ireland, Man, the Channel Islands, the Scillies, Shetland, the Orkneys and numerous Western Islands amongst others...oh, and Great Britain too. My use of archipelago was really to be inclusive of Eirenneach Gorm as a tip of the hat to the suffering heaped upon Irish shipping during the Emergency when the Nazis only concession to the non-combatants was to radio trawlers and the like before sinking them, British ships got no warning. Suspect the Russians would proceed along similar lines if things really deteriorated. [Post edited 12 May 2023 15:34]
|  |
| |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:41 - May 12 with 4662 views | StokieBlue |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:26 - May 12 by WeWereZombies |
Oh, for goodness sake. There are moves and counter moves going on all the time on the international stage. All I am trying to do is point out the danger of escalations in the military response, although the players may have no option but to change the approach in this grisly game of human chess. A bit of perspective and nous please.
[edit] By the way, the archipelago includes the island of Ireland, Man, the Channel Islands, the Scillies, Shetland, the Orkneys and numerous Western Islands amongst others...oh, and Great Britain too. My use of archipelago was really to be inclusive of Eirenneach Gorm as a tip of the hat to the suffering heaped upon Irish shipping during the Emergency when the Nazis only concession to the non-combatants was to radio trawlers and the like before sinking them, British ships got no warning. Suspect the Russians would proceed along similar lines if things really deteriorated. [Post edited 12 May 2023 15:34]
|
It was more the citing of non-combatants in WW2 that wasn't required - the scenarios are wildly different.
So to move the debate on, if you're worried about escalation then do you think the West and the UK specifically shouldn't be aiding Ukraine with weapons?
I can't really see any scenario where the Russian's are attacking British or European shipping - Russia doesn't want a war with Europe no matter how much Putin blusters.
Fair point on archipelago, although it doesn't really change the context.
SB | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:49 - May 12 with 4655 views | WeWereZombies |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:41 - May 12 by StokieBlue |
It was more the citing of non-combatants in WW2 that wasn't required - the scenarios are wildly different.
So to move the debate on, if you're worried about escalation then do you think the West and the UK specifically shouldn't be aiding Ukraine with weapons?
I can't really see any scenario where the Russian's are attacking British or European shipping - Russia doesn't want a war with Europe no matter how much Putin blusters.
Fair point on archipelago, although it doesn't really change the context.
SB |
Not so much that we shouldn't be sending weaponry to Ukraine, under the right circumstances (and better minds than mine and which have a bearing on the action will already have weighed this up and decided that this is the time) we should. But we need to be presenting Russia with an exit at the same time (because the Bear is too big to defeat outright) to have an effective strategy to bring an end to war. I am concerned that this thread descends into tub thumping and triumphalism (or despair) at times without fully acknowledging that real people with real lives being lost are involved. | |
| |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:50 - May 12 with 4655 views | giant_stow |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:25 - May 12 by Churchman |
It’d be the end of Russia. It won’t happen. |
Fair play - you're probably right, but I'm just pondering out loud really. |  |
| |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:00 - May 12 with 4645 views | StokieBlue |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:49 - May 12 by WeWereZombies |
Not so much that we shouldn't be sending weaponry to Ukraine, under the right circumstances (and better minds than mine and which have a bearing on the action will already have weighed this up and decided that this is the time) we should. But we need to be presenting Russia with an exit at the same time (because the Bear is too big to defeat outright) to have an effective strategy to bring an end to war. I am concerned that this thread descends into tub thumping and triumphalism (or despair) at times without fully acknowledging that real people with real lives being lost are involved. |
But recent history shows us they have no interest in withdrawing their troops from annexed regions (see Crimea) so you're essentially saying "might is right" because the only way they will stop is if they get to keep all the bits they have annexed this time.
Why should Ukraine agree to that?
The human suffering is awful but you're essentially saying you'd be happy for your area of Scotland to be annexed if Russia invaded if it meant an end to the war. I wonder if you'd feel the same if it happened and you were living in that area.
SB [Post edited 12 May 2023 16:04]
| | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:11 - May 12 with 4629 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:49 - May 12 by WeWereZombies |
Not so much that we shouldn't be sending weaponry to Ukraine, under the right circumstances (and better minds than mine and which have a bearing on the action will already have weighed this up and decided that this is the time) we should. But we need to be presenting Russia with an exit at the same time (because the Bear is too big to defeat outright) to have an effective strategy to bring an end to war. I am concerned that this thread descends into tub thumping and triumphalism (or despair) at times without fully acknowledging that real people with real lives being lost are involved. |
There is no triumphalism or tub thumping with so many lives destroyed.
What we have is a regime that decided to expand by swallowing another country because that regime feels they can. Russia can end this tomorrow. It can take its people out of a recognised sovereign country. The war will end right there and then. Easy.
Giving up territory to offer Russia a way out, i.e. surrender on the basis it will stop the carnage, is fundamentally wrong and also futile. If aggression is rewarded, like a blackmailer they’ll go again and will also encourage every other aggressive state to do the same. More lives lost.
There is no threat to Russia. Apart from Kenny Everett (‘let’s bomb Russia!’j about 40 years ago, nobody is threatening it. Nobody will. It too is a sovereign state. The ball is very much in Putin’s court, provided the west holds its nerve. Putin can end this tomorrow if he chooses. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:33 - May 12 with 4618 views | WeWereZombies |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:00 - May 12 by StokieBlue |
But recent history shows us they have no interest in withdrawing their troops from annexed regions (see Crimea) so you're essentially saying "might is right" because the only way they will stop is if they get to keep all the bits they have annexed this time.
Why should Ukraine agree to that?
The human suffering is awful but you're essentially saying you'd be happy for your area of Scotland to be annexed if Russia invaded if it meant an end to the war. I wonder if you'd feel the same if it happened and you were living in that area.
SB [Post edited 12 May 2023 16:04]
|
I haven't mentioned surrendering territory to Russia at all. But we have had a situation almost since Crimea was invaded there has also been a de facto occupation of Donetsk and surrounding areas by separatist rebels allied to Russia i.e. recognition of the government in Kyiv has not been complete. Add to that the issues concerning people who only speak Russian (not limited to Ukraine, see also Estonia, Latvia, even Poland) with allegations of bullying of children at school all the way up to the civil war conditions and we have seemingly irreconcilable differences (just as there were in the Sudetenland before World War Two.) So how to defuse this ?
But we saw in the lead up to the Good Friday Agreement that decent politicians and resolute public opinion can change things for the better (perhaps temporarily in our case given the rise of indecent politicians and increasing public disillusion.) So my position is for minimal war and maximal self determination. Do not assume that I expect appeasement to deliver this. | |
| |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:35 - May 12 with 4617 views | WeWereZombies |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 16:11 - May 12 by Churchman |
There is no triumphalism or tub thumping with so many lives destroyed.
What we have is a regime that decided to expand by swallowing another country because that regime feels they can. Russia can end this tomorrow. It can take its people out of a recognised sovereign country. The war will end right there and then. Easy.
Giving up territory to offer Russia a way out, i.e. surrender on the basis it will stop the carnage, is fundamentally wrong and also futile. If aggression is rewarded, like a blackmailer they’ll go again and will also encourage every other aggressive state to do the same. More lives lost.
There is no threat to Russia. Apart from Kenny Everett (‘let’s bomb Russia!’j about 40 years ago, nobody is threatening it. Nobody will. It too is a sovereign state. The ball is very much in Putin’s court, provided the west holds its nerve. Putin can end this tomorrow if he chooses. |
See reply to Stokie at 16:33 please. | |
| |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 13:04 - May 13 with 4543 views | Kievthegreat |
Not a good day for the Russia Airforce. A Mi-8 transport helicopter and a jet, possibly an Su-34 have been shot down in Russia. Possibly in friendly fire incidents.
Thread:
Not much better on the ground. There was a large strike on a factory yesterday and a military administration building today, supposedly by the new Storm Shadow weapons. Great job!
I wonder what production rates we could sustain for Storm Shadows? |  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 13:08 - May 13 with 4534 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 13:04 - May 13 by Kievthegreat |
Not a good day for the Russia Airforce. A Mi-8 transport helicopter and a jet, possibly an Su-34 have been shot down in Russia. Possibly in friendly fire incidents.
Thread:
Not much better on the ground. There was a large strike on a factory yesterday and a military administration building today, supposedly by the new Storm Shadow weapons. Great job!
I wonder what production rates we could sustain for Storm Shadows? |
That factory is going to need a lick of paint. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:07 - May 13 with 4478 views | Kievthegreat |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 13:04 - May 13 by Kievthegreat |
Not a good day for the Russia Airforce. A Mi-8 transport helicopter and a jet, possibly an Su-34 have been shot down in Russia. Possibly in friendly fire incidents.
Thread:
Not much better on the ground. There was a large strike on a factory yesterday and a military administration building today, supposedly by the new Storm Shadow weapons. Great job!
I wonder what production rates we could sustain for Storm Shadows? |
Make that 2 jets and 2 helicopters, including potentially the electronic warfare variant of the Mi-8 chopper. Pretty shambolic from Russia.
| | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:36 - May 15 with 4333 views | Eireannach_gorm |
' Prison numbers at an all time low...... '
|  | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:52 - May 15 with 4278 views | Churchman |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:36 - May 15 by Eireannach_gorm |
' Prison numbers at an all time low...... '
|
This bloke, along with the rest of Putin’s mouthpieces is a complete tool. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 00:57 - May 16 with 4181 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Even the dogs in Ukraine need prosthetic limbs with all the Russian shelling.
[Post edited 16 May 2023 17:54]
| | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:13 - May 16 with 4078 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Russians use prisoners, Ukrainians use geese!
| | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:37 - May 16 with 4064 views | Kievthegreat |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:13 - May 16 by Eireannach_gorm |
Russians use prisoners, Ukrainians use geese!
|
 | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 14:35 - May 17 with 3866 views | Eireannach_gorm |
No, I don't think so. It suits both parties in this war to play for time. Ukraine have not got enough ordnance to commence the counteroffensive yet and Russia wish to prepare for it.
Don't think that South Africa is an honest broker in this either.
| | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:17 - May 22 with 3645 views | Kievthegreat |
Well there were a lot of potential targets for the counter offensive, but I don't think many people had Belgorod (or should that be Bilhorod?) as being a target!
It seems the had been a Ukrainian incursion into the Belgorod Oblast. Some talk of it being official Ukrainian army, some talk of it being the Russian volunteers which seems the dominant viewpoint and some talk (tongue in cheek) of it being Belgorad separatist rebels 2014 style. Either way it looks like Ukraine taking advantage of a lightly defended sector of the front.
My favourite take:
[Post edited 22 May 2023 15:21]
| | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 17:08 - May 22 with 6870 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:17 - May 22 by Kievthegreat |
Well there were a lot of potential targets for the counter offensive, but I don't think many people had Belgorod (or should that be Bilhorod?) as being a target!
It seems the had been a Ukrainian incursion into the Belgorod Oblast. Some talk of it being official Ukrainian army, some talk of it being the Russian volunteers which seems the dominant viewpoint and some talk (tongue in cheek) of it being Belgorad separatist rebels 2014 style. Either way it looks like Ukraine taking advantage of a lightly defended sector of the front.
My favourite take:
[Post edited 22 May 2023 15:21]
|
Thumbs up for the Michael Weiss comment. | | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:54 - May 22 with 6815 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Latest fashion.
Rocket selfies.
| | | |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 18:57 - May 22 with 6813 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| The 'special military operation' continues to reach new lows. on 15:17 - May 22 by Kievthegreat |
Well there were a lot of potential targets for the counter offensive, but I don't think many people had Belgorod (or should that be Bilhorod?) as being a target!
It seems the had been a Ukrainian incursion into the Belgorod Oblast. Some talk of it being official Ukrainian army, some talk of it being the Russian volunteers which seems the dominant viewpoint and some talk (tongue in cheek) of it being Belgorad separatist rebels 2014 style. Either way it looks like Ukraine taking advantage of a lightly defended sector of the front.
My favourite take:
[Post edited 22 May 2023 15:21]
|
| | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
