| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 12:27 - May 7 with 1137 views | J2BLUE |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 12:21 - May 7 by footers |
So long as I don't ever see a picture of Brian Rose again I'll be happy.
A lot of independents this time around too. But none of them really seemed to have anything to say aside from "vote for me". |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 12:29 - May 7 with 1127 views | StokieBlue |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 12:27 - May 7 by J2BLUE |
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Is the tie wearing him?
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 12:29 - May 7 with 1127 views | footers |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 12:26 - May 7 by StokieBlue |
Just reading up on him I am glad I've not been paying too much attention to the mayoral campaign. What a tool.
"Rose has conducted five interviews with conspiracy theorist David Icke.[13] In one interview, published in April 2020, Icke falsely claimed that there was a link between the COVID-19 pandemic and 5G mobile phone networks, without being challenged by Rose."
"On 24 January 2021, Rose and six of his staff were fined by police for breaking lockdown rules while filming promotional material for his campaign."
Idiot. Utterly depressing that he has 2m subscribers listening to that rubbish.
SB |
Quite a few of the independent candidates were anti-lockdown/covid deniers or sceptics. It's really worrying.
Oh well, not long to go before Count Binface becomes our new mayor :) |  |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 12:32 - May 7 with 1114 views | footers |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 12:27 - May 7 by J2BLUE |
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His face has been staring up at me from the doormat for months now. Make it stop, J2, make it stop. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 12:33 - May 7 with 1114 views | J2BLUE |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 12:29 - May 7 by StokieBlue |
Is the tie wearing him?
SB |
He looks like the latest businessman villain in Eastenders. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:03 - May 7 with 1059 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 11:56 - May 7 by Herbivore |
I don't really see how our politics can be salvaged within the current electoral system. The Tories only need around 40% of the vote to maintain power and they are managing to do a fine job of maintaining and stoking the divisions caused by Brexit. That secures them a huge block of voters. They have the backing of the majority of the media and that enables them to control the narrative. The country is broken. |
Can you imagine an election where you have a choice of 8 or 9 different parties. Where if no one achieves 50%+1 there is a run off between the top two.
Where once MP’s are elected no party has more than 35% of the seats so the wheeler dealing starts. We all saw how much of a disaster the Tory/LibDem coalition turned out. People voting for a party that wanted to abolish student fees ending up standing for exactly the opposite.
There is a reason why since then we have gone back to a straight, in England at least, fight between the two heavyweight parties.
My vote doesn’t count, but it would if I lived in Ipswich, however I still favour First past the post, but with an elected second house elected in a similar fashion to the last MEP elections. I would also reduce numbers dramatically we have far too many MP’s and even more silly numbers in thr Lords. |  |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:19 - May 7 with 1022 views | Darth_Koont |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:03 - May 7 by Pinewoodblue |
Can you imagine an election where you have a choice of 8 or 9 different parties. Where if no one achieves 50%+1 there is a run off between the top two.
Where once MP’s are elected no party has more than 35% of the seats so the wheeler dealing starts. We all saw how much of a disaster the Tory/LibDem coalition turned out. People voting for a party that wanted to abolish student fees ending up standing for exactly the opposite.
There is a reason why since then we have gone back to a straight, in England at least, fight between the two heavyweight parties.
My vote doesn’t count, but it would if I lived in Ipswich, however I still favour First past the post, but with an elected second house elected in a similar fashion to the last MEP elections. I would also reduce numbers dramatically we have far too many MP’s and even more silly numbers in thr Lords. |
Doesn’t actually work like that in PR countries. The broad coalitions and arrangements are all agreed beforehand so even voters know what they’re getting. Then depending on how the votes go that alliance/coalition can lean more to the biggest partner(s).
Complete contrast to our own country which is thrown into turmoil by the sudden need to work with each other (Con/LibDems and Con/DUP) which also no-one voted for.
In terms of finding consensus, working together and representing the country as a whole (let alone a majority), our system is way below the required standard for a supposed “democracy” in 2021. |  |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:29 - May 7 with 1007 views | Herbivore |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:03 - May 7 by Pinewoodblue |
Can you imagine an election where you have a choice of 8 or 9 different parties. Where if no one achieves 50%+1 there is a run off between the top two.
Where once MP’s are elected no party has more than 35% of the seats so the wheeler dealing starts. We all saw how much of a disaster the Tory/LibDem coalition turned out. People voting for a party that wanted to abolish student fees ending up standing for exactly the opposite.
There is a reason why since then we have gone back to a straight, in England at least, fight between the two heavyweight parties.
My vote doesn’t count, but it would if I lived in Ipswich, however I still favour First past the post, but with an elected second house elected in a similar fashion to the last MEP elections. I would also reduce numbers dramatically we have far too many MP’s and even more silly numbers in thr Lords. |
You're using an example of a coalition formed under FPTP that you consider a disaster as evidence in favour of FPTP.....
There are far too many seats where there is just no point in voting and far too many votes basically end up in the bin. We end up with government's acting as though they have a huge mandate when they haven't won the popular vote. It's a broken system, you could even argue it's a rugged system. If you favour it you have to question whether you're really that fussed about democracy. [Post edited 7 May 2021 13:32]
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:38 - May 7 with 991 views | Darth_Koont |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 11:59 - May 7 by Steve_M |
I think Starmer could (still) very much be that middle ground option for Labour, the problem being that a lot of the factional stuff is more important to those doing the fighting than actually winning elections.
The NIP stuff is telling, loads of Twitter hype for 250 votes and yet that all feeds into this narrative of Labour being divided. |
Delusional.
There’s absolutely nothing in the centre bar a tweaked version of the status quo. And if you do want to move there, electorally you still need to take the genuine social democrats and democratic socialists with you somehow. The people who believe that structural change is needed.
Blair had that one-off opportunity back in 1997 but ever since then it’s been fracturing the support, the regions, the socio-economic divisions and leading to diminishing returns.
It’s purely the fantasy of a middle-/upper-middle class liberal elite because they don’t actually want or need much change anyway. The difference between them and the conservative elite is that the latter need power to maintain their privilege and position. The liberal lot get that for free while able to ease their conscience by saying they’re different and they care. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:44 - May 7 with 973 views | Steve_M |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 12:29 - May 7 by footers |
Quite a few of the independent candidates were anti-lockdown/covid deniers or sceptics. It's really worrying.
Oh well, not long to go before Count Binface becomes our new mayor :) |
Is Rose the one who drinks his own urine?
The minor candidates for Mayor really were an odd collection, even more so than in previous years. Binface really was high on the more sensible side . |  |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:50 - May 7 with 956 views | Herbivore |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:38 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
Delusional.
There’s absolutely nothing in the centre bar a tweaked version of the status quo. And if you do want to move there, electorally you still need to take the genuine social democrats and democratic socialists with you somehow. The people who believe that structural change is needed.
Blair had that one-off opportunity back in 1997 but ever since then it’s been fracturing the support, the regions, the socio-economic divisions and leading to diminishing returns.
It’s purely the fantasy of a middle-/upper-middle class liberal elite because they don’t actually want or need much change anyway. The difference between them and the conservative elite is that the latter need power to maintain their privilege and position. The liberal lot get that for free while able to ease their conscience by saying they’re different and they care. |
It's interesting that you are seeking to distance yourself from the middle class elite, when in my experience those who think structural change is needed - and I include myself in that - also very much fall into that bracket. Let's not pretend that something like Corbynism was a working class movement, he lost thousands of votes in traditional working class areas. Most of those who signed up to Labour under Corbyn were the urban professional class and students. To pretend otherwise is pretty disingenuous.
There is a question now as to whether Labour still wants to represent those traditional working voters or not, and whether they can simultaneously appeal to both educated urban voters - who now comprise much of its base - and to those in the red wall heartlands. That's not a straightforward task, those two groups don't have much in common.
The Tories are canny bastards and have done a good job of finding something to latch on to in the Labour heartlands and I'm not sure how Labour reclaim those voters. One thing is for sure, it won't be done by a bunch of middle class kids chanting at the Labour leader at Glastonbury and it won't be done by telling them that what they really want is structural change, they just don't know it. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:53 - May 7 with 948 views | footers |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:44 - May 7 by Steve_M |
Is Rose the one who drinks his own urine?
The minor candidates for Mayor really were an odd collection, even more so than in previous years. Binface really was high on the more sensible side . |
Is that right? Blimey, he's even more of a crackpot than I'd assumed if so.
He really is, and he got my second preference vote in the hope that he beats that weasel-faced tw@t Fox. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:56 - May 7 with 919 views | HARRY10 |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:03 - May 7 by Pinewoodblue |
Can you imagine an election where you have a choice of 8 or 9 different parties. Where if no one achieves 50%+1 there is a run off between the top two.
Where once MP’s are elected no party has more than 35% of the seats so the wheeler dealing starts. We all saw how much of a disaster the Tory/LibDem coalition turned out. People voting for a party that wanted to abolish student fees ending up standing for exactly the opposite.
There is a reason why since then we have gone back to a straight, in England at least, fight between the two heavyweight parties.
My vote doesn’t count, but it would if I lived in Ipswich, however I still favour First past the post, but with an elected second house elected in a similar fashion to the last MEP elections. I would also reduce numbers dramatically we have far too many MP’s and even more silly numbers in thr Lords. |
Pretty much what I have been pointing out to refute this magic silver bullet of PR.
Pretty much all legislation is binary - it either is, or it is not. PR enthusiasts will have that a small party can influence things and make it more representative. the UK does not fully leave the EU but is out on 52% of the year.
The decision to put the Tories in power in 2010 was not a reflection of the vote, but one decided by less than a handful of Libdem leaders.
Politics will only change when voters get of their lazy arzes and demand better. When habitual liars such as Johnson and Farage are held to account for their lies we will see them less inclined to do so.. Last night on Question Time one of the viewers was allowed to spew out a couple of blatant lies, amongst the all too predictable bigotry.
Dump the useless Speaker. I have seen more assertive slugs than that numpty. Voice opinion, and all the better i it is based on fact. that can be argued against. But to allow the PM to blatantly lie while at the dispatch box time after time is the biggest affront to democracy - not FPTP.
They are not all as bad as each other. There are plenty of decent and principled MPs in all parts of the Commons. There are also a fair number of shysters who are clearly only there to line their pockets. And they are they because.
PR will not wheedle these types out. In fact it will make it worse, as you will not know who you are voting for, and only be told who you MP is after the count.
As to the Lords it does a vital and necessary job in the democratic process. One that could be done with far fewer numbers, and should never be more than a couple of hundred. They have no constituents to represent.
Remove any hereditary Lords, as with Lords spiritual (Bishops). Cut the allowance considerably. I can appreciate the value of having barristers and such like, as much if what they do is scrutinise proposed law. But what the fck does Ian Botham add, or Andrew Lloyd Webber (other than the thought that one of the gargoyles has sprung to life and climbed down to join in)
Law has to be seen to be done as well as done. The current set up brings the Lords and Parliament in disrepute. |  | | |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:00 - May 7 with 889 views | lowhouseblue |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:50 - May 7 by Herbivore |
It's interesting that you are seeking to distance yourself from the middle class elite, when in my experience those who think structural change is needed - and I include myself in that - also very much fall into that bracket. Let's not pretend that something like Corbynism was a working class movement, he lost thousands of votes in traditional working class areas. Most of those who signed up to Labour under Corbyn were the urban professional class and students. To pretend otherwise is pretty disingenuous.
There is a question now as to whether Labour still wants to represent those traditional working voters or not, and whether they can simultaneously appeal to both educated urban voters - who now comprise much of its base - and to those in the red wall heartlands. That's not a straightforward task, those two groups don't have much in common.
The Tories are canny bastards and have done a good job of finding something to latch on to in the Labour heartlands and I'm not sure how Labour reclaim those voters. One thing is for sure, it won't be done by a bunch of middle class kids chanting at the Labour leader at Glastonbury and it won't be done by telling them that what they really want is structural change, they just don't know it. |
i would add that it's not just that the labour membership is middle class and unrepresentative of the people it needs to vote for it - that's been true for a fair time. it's also that the membership now has complete contempt for the people it needs to vote for it. something approaching hatred. that's new and is a sad legacy of brexit. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:08 - May 7 with 856 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:56 - May 7 by HARRY10 |
Pretty much what I have been pointing out to refute this magic silver bullet of PR.
Pretty much all legislation is binary - it either is, or it is not. PR enthusiasts will have that a small party can influence things and make it more representative. the UK does not fully leave the EU but is out on 52% of the year.
The decision to put the Tories in power in 2010 was not a reflection of the vote, but one decided by less than a handful of Libdem leaders.
Politics will only change when voters get of their lazy arzes and demand better. When habitual liars such as Johnson and Farage are held to account for their lies we will see them less inclined to do so.. Last night on Question Time one of the viewers was allowed to spew out a couple of blatant lies, amongst the all too predictable bigotry.
Dump the useless Speaker. I have seen more assertive slugs than that numpty. Voice opinion, and all the better i it is based on fact. that can be argued against. But to allow the PM to blatantly lie while at the dispatch box time after time is the biggest affront to democracy - not FPTP.
They are not all as bad as each other. There are plenty of decent and principled MPs in all parts of the Commons. There are also a fair number of shysters who are clearly only there to line their pockets. And they are they because.
PR will not wheedle these types out. In fact it will make it worse, as you will not know who you are voting for, and only be told who you MP is after the count.
As to the Lords it does a vital and necessary job in the democratic process. One that could be done with far fewer numbers, and should never be more than a couple of hundred. They have no constituents to represent.
Remove any hereditary Lords, as with Lords spiritual (Bishops). Cut the allowance considerably. I can appreciate the value of having barristers and such like, as much if what they do is scrutinise proposed law. But what the fck does Ian Botham add, or Andrew Lloyd Webber (other than the thought that one of the gargoyles has sprung to life and climbed down to join in)
Law has to be seen to be done as well as done. The current set up brings the Lords and Parliament in disrepute. |
I know who my MP is going to be *before* the count.. |  |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:16 - May 7 with 819 views | Steve_M |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:50 - May 7 by Herbivore |
It's interesting that you are seeking to distance yourself from the middle class elite, when in my experience those who think structural change is needed - and I include myself in that - also very much fall into that bracket. Let's not pretend that something like Corbynism was a working class movement, he lost thousands of votes in traditional working class areas. Most of those who signed up to Labour under Corbyn were the urban professional class and students. To pretend otherwise is pretty disingenuous.
There is a question now as to whether Labour still wants to represent those traditional working voters or not, and whether they can simultaneously appeal to both educated urban voters - who now comprise much of its base - and to those in the red wall heartlands. That's not a straightforward task, those two groups don't have much in common.
The Tories are canny bastards and have done a good job of finding something to latch on to in the Labour heartlands and I'm not sure how Labour reclaim those voters. One thing is for sure, it won't be done by a bunch of middle class kids chanting at the Labour leader at Glastonbury and it won't be done by telling them that what they really want is structural change, they just don't know it. |
re: this paragraph:
"There is a question now as to whether Labour still wants to represent those traditional working voters or not, and whether they can simultaneously appeal to both educated urban voters - who now comprise much of its base - and to those in the red wall heartlands. That's not a straightforward task, those two groups don't have much in common."
One thing to add to that would be that the divide in British politics is now a cultural/values one rather than an economic one. That drives a massive wedge between two traditional Labour-voting constituencies and, as you say, it is going to be very difficult to bridge that gap at least in the short-term.
The success, or more likely otherwise, of the Tory 'levelling up' agenda is the thign to watch here. Ben Houchen seems to have done a good job in raising the profile of the NE which has a knock on effect, yes there is a pork barrel effect but I think it's more than that in his case. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:29 - May 7 with 807 views | Herbivore |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:16 - May 7 by Steve_M |
re: this paragraph:
"There is a question now as to whether Labour still wants to represent those traditional working voters or not, and whether they can simultaneously appeal to both educated urban voters - who now comprise much of its base - and to those in the red wall heartlands. That's not a straightforward task, those two groups don't have much in common."
One thing to add to that would be that the divide in British politics is now a cultural/values one rather than an economic one. That drives a massive wedge between two traditional Labour-voting constituencies and, as you say, it is going to be very difficult to bridge that gap at least in the short-term.
The success, or more likely otherwise, of the Tory 'levelling up' agenda is the thign to watch here. Ben Houchen seems to have done a good job in raising the profile of the NE which has a knock on effect, yes there is a pork barrel effect but I think it's more than that in his case. |
Indeed. This is why the Tories are so keen to keep stoking a culture war. The culture war is where they won the traditional Labour heartlands and it's where they can try to hold them.
The question that faces Labour is whether they adapt to this and try to win back traditional Labour voters by appealing to their more socially Conservative values (in contrast to urban Labour voters) or whether they try to shift the narrative back to economics and policy, particularly things like workers' rights, the NHS, and decent public services.
The latter is where they can unify their traditional support in working class areas and the more liberal, urban core they have now. However, it's easier said than done when the culture war stuff is highly emotive, and therefore prompts a reaction, and when the Tories have such a compliant media helping them to keep stoking the war.
I worry that the difficulty in pursuing that path is leading Starmer to seek easier answers by focusing on nation and family to try and take back some ground lost to the Tories in the culture war. The Tories own that too strongly for him to cut through though. He needs to try to find a way to shift the narrative away from the culture war nonsense and back on to jobs, the NHS, and public services. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:33 - May 7 with 798 views | Darth_Koont |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:50 - May 7 by Herbivore |
It's interesting that you are seeking to distance yourself from the middle class elite, when in my experience those who think structural change is needed - and I include myself in that - also very much fall into that bracket. Let's not pretend that something like Corbynism was a working class movement, he lost thousands of votes in traditional working class areas. Most of those who signed up to Labour under Corbyn were the urban professional class and students. To pretend otherwise is pretty disingenuous.
There is a question now as to whether Labour still wants to represent those traditional working voters or not, and whether they can simultaneously appeal to both educated urban voters - who now comprise much of its base - and to those in the red wall heartlands. That's not a straightforward task, those two groups don't have much in common.
The Tories are canny bastards and have done a good job of finding something to latch on to in the Labour heartlands and I'm not sure how Labour reclaim those voters. One thing is for sure, it won't be done by a bunch of middle class kids chanting at the Labour leader at Glastonbury and it won't be done by telling them that what they really want is structural change, they just don't know it. |
A lot of that’s fair enough if we’re talking about voters. But I wasn’t clear enough there.
I’m talking mostly about the left-side of the Establishment, the typical Labour/LibDem/ChangeUK politicians and their People’s Vote-pushing, left-punching media commentators. The ones who act as gatekeepers and moderators of what is acceptable in politics, but who increasingly look like they’re just protecting their own access to power, influence and money.
They’re the ones who are pushing this ridiculous narrative of pitching to the centre and beyond to the right. But there’s no data to support it over the past two decades. Both in this country and overseas. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:34 - May 7 with 797 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 13:56 - May 7 by HARRY10 |
Pretty much what I have been pointing out to refute this magic silver bullet of PR.
Pretty much all legislation is binary - it either is, or it is not. PR enthusiasts will have that a small party can influence things and make it more representative. the UK does not fully leave the EU but is out on 52% of the year.
The decision to put the Tories in power in 2010 was not a reflection of the vote, but one decided by less than a handful of Libdem leaders.
Politics will only change when voters get of their lazy arzes and demand better. When habitual liars such as Johnson and Farage are held to account for their lies we will see them less inclined to do so.. Last night on Question Time one of the viewers was allowed to spew out a couple of blatant lies, amongst the all too predictable bigotry.
Dump the useless Speaker. I have seen more assertive slugs than that numpty. Voice opinion, and all the better i it is based on fact. that can be argued against. But to allow the PM to blatantly lie while at the dispatch box time after time is the biggest affront to democracy - not FPTP.
They are not all as bad as each other. There are plenty of decent and principled MPs in all parts of the Commons. There are also a fair number of shysters who are clearly only there to line their pockets. And they are they because.
PR will not wheedle these types out. In fact it will make it worse, as you will not know who you are voting for, and only be told who you MP is after the count.
As to the Lords it does a vital and necessary job in the democratic process. One that could be done with far fewer numbers, and should never be more than a couple of hundred. They have no constituents to represent.
Remove any hereditary Lords, as with Lords spiritual (Bishops). Cut the allowance considerably. I can appreciate the value of having barristers and such like, as much if what they do is scrutinise proposed law. But what the fck does Ian Botham add, or Andrew Lloyd Webber (other than the thought that one of the gargoyles has sprung to life and climbed down to join in)
Law has to be seen to be done as well as done. The current set up brings the Lords and Parliament in disrepute. |
FFS, look up open list proportional representation - you vote for a party and then candidates within it.
Even with closed list PR, you still know who you are getting because the lists are public knowledge before the election. In that sense it's no different to FPTP. |  | | |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:37 - May 7 with 780 views | giant_stow |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:29 - May 7 by Herbivore |
Indeed. This is why the Tories are so keen to keep stoking a culture war. The culture war is where they won the traditional Labour heartlands and it's where they can try to hold them.
The question that faces Labour is whether they adapt to this and try to win back traditional Labour voters by appealing to their more socially Conservative values (in contrast to urban Labour voters) or whether they try to shift the narrative back to economics and policy, particularly things like workers' rights, the NHS, and decent public services.
The latter is where they can unify their traditional support in working class areas and the more liberal, urban core they have now. However, it's easier said than done when the culture war stuff is highly emotive, and therefore prompts a reaction, and when the Tories have such a compliant media helping them to keep stoking the war.
I worry that the difficulty in pursuing that path is leading Starmer to seek easier answers by focusing on nation and family to try and take back some ground lost to the Tories in the culture war. The Tories own that too strongly for him to cut through though. He needs to try to find a way to shift the narrative away from the culture war nonsense and back on to jobs, the NHS, and public services. |
At the risk of sounding even more silly than normal, you make me wonder whether Labour can unite that cultural divide around the notion of 'common sense'.
Its common sense that billionaires should pay loads of tax, or that govt contracts shouldn't be dished out to mates, or that the north needs more support than the south.
Its also common sense that people should respect difference in race, creed, gender etc... [Post edited 7 May 2021 14:38]
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:37 - May 7 with 777 views | Herbivore |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:33 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
A lot of that’s fair enough if we’re talking about voters. But I wasn’t clear enough there.
I’m talking mostly about the left-side of the Establishment, the typical Labour/LibDem/ChangeUK politicians and their People’s Vote-pushing, left-punching media commentators. The ones who act as gatekeepers and moderators of what is acceptable in politics, but who increasingly look like they’re just protecting their own access to power, influence and money.
They’re the ones who are pushing this ridiculous narrative of pitching to the centre and beyond to the right. But there’s no data to support it over the past two decades. Both in this country and overseas. |
That's just some words. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:43 - May 7 with 750 views | Steve_M |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:29 - May 7 by Herbivore |
Indeed. This is why the Tories are so keen to keep stoking a culture war. The culture war is where they won the traditional Labour heartlands and it's where they can try to hold them.
The question that faces Labour is whether they adapt to this and try to win back traditional Labour voters by appealing to their more socially Conservative values (in contrast to urban Labour voters) or whether they try to shift the narrative back to economics and policy, particularly things like workers' rights, the NHS, and decent public services.
The latter is where they can unify their traditional support in working class areas and the more liberal, urban core they have now. However, it's easier said than done when the culture war stuff is highly emotive, and therefore prompts a reaction, and when the Tories have such a compliant media helping them to keep stoking the war.
I worry that the difficulty in pursuing that path is leading Starmer to seek easier answers by focusing on nation and family to try and take back some ground lost to the Tories in the culture war. The Tories own that too strongly for him to cut through though. He needs to try to find a way to shift the narrative away from the culture war nonsense and back on to jobs, the NHS, and public services. |
I'm not sure that showing patriotism is necessarily looking for easy answers so much as showing an obvious counterpoint to Corbyn who clearly gave the impression that he didn't much care for this country. Whether that's entirely fair or not is less relevant than the perception. On it's own though, it's nowhere near enough.
Where I do think Starmer has been weak, although for obvious tactical reasons, is downplaying the impact of Brexit. Those who want to rejoin soon are always going to be disappointed but he missed the opportunity to set out the government's failings by trying to pretend Brexit was settled - the Tories don't want it settled so in keeping quiet Starmer repeats one of Corbyn's Brexit failings of not having a public position. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:48 - May 7 with 733 views | Darth_Koont |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:37 - May 7 by giant_stow |
At the risk of sounding even more silly than normal, you make me wonder whether Labour can unite that cultural divide around the notion of 'common sense'.
Its common sense that billionaires should pay loads of tax, or that govt contracts shouldn't be dished out to mates, or that the north needs more support than the south.
Its also common sense that people should respect difference in race, creed, gender etc... [Post edited 7 May 2021 14:38]
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It was common sense too when Labour was in government and over the past 10 years in opposition.
This is going to sound hugely cynical but I haven’t seen much to prove it wrong: I just don’t think any of that has been in their own personal interests so they’ve even ducked the electoral advantages.
See the majority of Labour politicians as being just as interested in power, influence and money as their Conservative counterparts and it explains why common sense and equality that can help the many never match the privileged access and economic liberty that is proffered to the few. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:52 - May 7 with 715 views | Darth_Koont |
| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 14:37 - May 7 by Herbivore |
That's just some words. |
Disappointing response from you TBH.
You can disagree with it (and please do) but it’s my honest opinion of what I see. It’s hardly a hot take either. | |
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| Conservatives predicted to win Hartlepool by-election on 15:18 - May 7 with 665 views | rgp1 |
Hobsons choice innit! Between a government that has wrecked the economy or an opposition ( if you call it that) that is stuck trying to reverse out of a cul de sac in islington! | | | |
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