| Next James Bond..... 08:20 - Jul 17 with 15798 views | itfcjoe |
In light of the new Dr Who being a female, which I couldn't care less about as have never and will never watch it anyway, I wondered what people's thoughts are on the next James Bond....
I think the favourite is Tom Hardy, but there has been a lot of talk about Idris Elba.
I don't get how a black guy can get the role of a literary character who is clearly defined in numerous books - it makes no sense to me.
I'm sure some will see this as racist, although I struggle to see how. |  |
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| Next James Bond..... on 09:48 - Jul 17 with 6780 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Next James Bond..... on 09:37 - Jul 17 by RoyKeanesDog |
I wouldn't be against Idris personally, but would prefer Tom Hardy.
A woman James Bond would be a different kettle of fish though. |
Agreed, a woman playing Bond would massively change the dynamic, you woud guess, and not feel the same.
Comparing it to Doctor Who, which is a broad role which changes and has been played by relatively old, young, geeky, more macho, etc etc, I don't think that a woman would dramatically change things beyond that. Unlike Bond who is all out macho, guns and explosions etc. |  | | |
| Next James Bond..... on 09:50 - Jul 17 with 6769 views | factual_blue |
nigel farage. |  |
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| Next James Bond..... on 09:56 - Jul 17 with 6755 views | Superfrans |
| Next James Bond..... on 09:48 - Jul 17 by Axeldalai_lama |
Agreed, a woman playing Bond would massively change the dynamic, you woud guess, and not feel the same.
Comparing it to Doctor Who, which is a broad role which changes and has been played by relatively old, young, geeky, more macho, etc etc, I don't think that a woman would dramatically change things beyond that. Unlike Bond who is all out macho, guns and explosions etc. |
Personally, I wouldn't advocate changing James to Jane Bond. But I also wouldn't advocate continuing with the franchise without a serious update to reflect modern society.
Even Daniel Craig thinks its pathetic how a 50yo secret agent *always* falls into bed with a nubile young women three decades his junior. He's an outdated, misogynist throwback. IMHO. |  |
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| Next James Bond..... on 09:58 - Jul 17 with 6749 views | tcblue |
| Next James Bond..... on 09:33 - Jul 17 by Lord_Lucan |
You seem to be just trying to dig Joe out for the sake of it.
You obviously don't know him - and I think he has a point. |
I'm really not.
I don't know much about Bond, certainly not as much as Joe, and I'm interested in what makes it a big deal.
If you really must push me, I'm trying to get an angle which confirms the last sentence of his OP, as from what I've always read from him, he's a top bloke |  | | |
| Next James Bond..... on 10:07 - Jul 17 with 6744 views | BlueBadger |
I find it a bit odd that people can suspend disbelief for a super spy who owns a car that can turn into a submarine but not that he might be black. [Post edited 17 Jul 2017 10:18]
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| Next James Bond..... on 10:24 - Jul 17 with 6693 views | LankHenners |
| Next James Bond..... on 09:18 - Jul 17 by itfcjoe |
With regards to being a smaller change than gender, nationality or age then to clarify these things that I also don't think should be changed but aren't currently amongst the bookies favourites to be the next Bond so hadn't brought those up.
There are still books written with permission from the estate of Ian Fleming. If James Bond is seen as too much of a misogynist, or sexist, or priviliged white background then I'd rather the movies die out than change to try and adapt to modern ideals. |
Struggling to see how making a character less of a misogynist is a bad thing. |  |
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| Next James Bond..... on 10:25 - Jul 17 with 6692 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Next James Bond..... on 09:58 - Jul 17 by tcblue |
I'm really not.
I don't know much about Bond, certainly not as much as Joe, and I'm interested in what makes it a big deal.
If you really must push me, I'm trying to get an angle which confirms the last sentence of his OP, as from what I've always read from him, he's a top bloke |
I'll be honest in as much as I have sort of reconsidered my initial view after reading some replies and giving it further thought*
*Shock horror, I have changed my mind. |  |
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| Next James Bond..... on 10:29 - Jul 17 with 6676 views | itfcjoe |
| Next James Bond..... on 09:45 - Jul 17 by Superfrans |
But these are films. They're not the same as the books and don't need to match all details from the source materials.
The Bourne films bear little similiarity to Robert Ludlum's books. But that's not a problem.
And plenty of blonde actors have played characters from novels with dark hair.
In the vast majority of dramatizations of the life of Jesus Christ, he has been played as a blue eyed, white-skinned man, when he would quite clearly have been of different ethnic origin.
Plus, when the books were mostly written, they were set in a time when a black, British secret agent would have been impossible, I would have thought (or at least highly unlikely). But the films are set in a more modern setting, and it is appropriate that they should be updated for a different world.
If you think about it, if you slavishly followed the characteristics of fictional characters from the past 300/400 years of British culture, the characters that a black actor could play would be severely limited, restricted to servants, members of the underclass etc - which would clearly be wrong. |
Whilst I do see some of the points, I don't think the comparison with Jesus Christ is particularly relevant - Jesus wasn't a character in the way James Bond is and wasn't described in detail like Ian Fleming has with how he saw Bond.
I don't think it's a need to slavishly follow characters from past 300-400 years, but staying true to the main character of what is now a hugely well known book and film franchise. | |
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| Next James Bond..... on 10:32 - Jul 17 with 6670 views | itfcjoe |
| Next James Bond..... on 09:56 - Jul 17 by Superfrans |
Personally, I wouldn't advocate changing James to Jane Bond. But I also wouldn't advocate continuing with the franchise without a serious update to reflect modern society.
Even Daniel Craig thinks its pathetic how a 50yo secret agent *always* falls into bed with a nubile young women three decades his junior. He's an outdated, misogynist throwback. IMHO. |
I personally think that is all a totally separate point, and am willing to discuss that separately - but it's just blokes fantasy of being a well groomed, debonair bloke going round saving the world, driving fast cars and being with beautiful women.
It's just an escape, nothing to be taken too seriously | |
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| Next James Bond..... on 10:41 - Jul 17 with 6650 views | itfcjoe |
| Next James Bond..... on 09:58 - Jul 17 by tcblue |
I'm really not.
I don't know much about Bond, certainly not as much as Joe, and I'm interested in what makes it a big deal.
If you really must push me, I'm trying to get an angle which confirms the last sentence of his OP, as from what I've always read from him, he's a top bloke |
The angle is that when Elba was brought up, there were racism rows for comments from Roger Moore, Piers Brosnan and Anthony Horowitz (who is writing the Bond books currently).
And then everyone has to fall over themselves to pretend that changing a character fundamentally isn't an issue even though they clearly believe it is as don't want to appear racist.
It just seems silly for an established character, who has been modelled on the books, but brought forward for more modern times with the supporting cast to change and that fundamentally changes the whole thing....the back story, the history, the link to the books etc. | |
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| Next James Bond..... on 10:51 - Jul 17 with 6614 views | tcblue |
| Next James Bond..... on 10:24 - Jul 17 by LankHenners |
Struggling to see how making a character less of a misogynist is a bad thing. |
See, that would actually change the context of the character and I do sort of agree with the point about that.
I think Skyfall (?) had an angle where it had Old Bond trying to adapt to a newer world. I quite liked that concept but it didn't really go to the levels of addressing his misogyny AFAIR. I dunno, maybe Bond Attends A Disciplinary Hearing With HR doesn't make for great movies | | | |
| Next James Bond..... on 10:53 - Jul 17 with 6605 views | tcblue |
| Next James Bond..... on 10:41 - Jul 17 by itfcjoe |
The angle is that when Elba was brought up, there were racism rows for comments from Roger Moore, Piers Brosnan and Anthony Horowitz (who is writing the Bond books currently).
And then everyone has to fall over themselves to pretend that changing a character fundamentally isn't an issue even though they clearly believe it is as don't want to appear racist.
It just seems silly for an established character, who has been modelled on the books, but brought forward for more modern times with the supporting cast to change and that fundamentally changes the whole thing....the back story, the history, the link to the books etc. |
I think the only point we're disagreeing on is the context and depth you put on your usage of the word 'fundamentally'. | | | |
| Next James Bond..... on 10:57 - Jul 17 with 6593 views | LankHenners |
| Next James Bond..... on 10:51 - Jul 17 by tcblue |
See, that would actually change the context of the character and I do sort of agree with the point about that.
I think Skyfall (?) had an angle where it had Old Bond trying to adapt to a newer world. I quite liked that concept but it didn't really go to the levels of addressing his misogyny AFAIR. I dunno, maybe Bond Attends A Disciplinary Hearing With HR doesn't make for great movies |
James Bond can be a suave, smooth charmer that sleeps with beautiful women without being a misogynist. The character's certainly less of one now than he was with Sean Connery first played him in any case. | |
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| Next James Bond..... on 10:57 - Jul 17 with 6589 views | itfcjoe |
| Next James Bond..... on 10:53 - Jul 17 by tcblue |
I think the only point we're disagreeing on is the context and depth you put on your usage of the word 'fundamentally'. |
Possibly, although i do think that for such a well established character in what is still in reality a long running 'series' it would be a fundamental change. | |
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| Next James Bond..... on 11:00 - Jul 17 with 6576 views | Superfrans |
| Next James Bond..... on 10:29 - Jul 17 by itfcjoe |
Whilst I do see some of the points, I don't think the comparison with Jesus Christ is particularly relevant - Jesus wasn't a character in the way James Bond is and wasn't described in detail like Ian Fleming has with how he saw Bond.
I don't think it's a need to slavishly follow characters from past 300-400 years, but staying true to the main character of what is now a hugely well known book and film franchise. |
Careful. You can't say Jesus wasn't a fictional character on here... ;-)
I think its more an issue changing the nature of a film character rather than a character from a series of novels, which happens all the time. The thing I don't fully grasp is why the colour of a character's skin is such a significant change, given that Bond on screen has been blond and dark haired, has been Scottish, English and Welsh.
That said, I also don't care for him much in any case, so it doesn't bother me either way. | |
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| Next James Bond..... on 11:01 - Jul 17 with 6571 views | tcblue |
I suppose I meant more that I don't think you're supposed to like Bond, he's a tosspot. Ridiculing his lack of meeting the modern world was an interesting plot angle, but I think it was a bit of a missed opportunity.
I'm sure Idris Elba could play a misogynistic psychopath just as well as Tom Hiddleston | | | |
| Next James Bond..... on 11:05 - Jul 17 with 6555 views | Superfrans |
| Next James Bond..... on 10:32 - Jul 17 by itfcjoe |
I personally think that is all a totally separate point, and am willing to discuss that separately - but it's just blokes fantasy of being a well groomed, debonair bloke going round saving the world, driving fast cars and being with beautiful women.
It's just an escape, nothing to be taken too seriously |
I personally just find it all so awful - misogynist, nonsensical, lacking credibility or any charm. The dialogue and lack of credibility make me cringe.
But everyone to their own - and my dad absolutely loved Bond, so I have no problem with people liking him. | |
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| Next James Bond..... on 11:11 - Jul 17 with 6539 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Next James Bond..... on 11:00 - Jul 17 by Superfrans |
Careful. You can't say Jesus wasn't a fictional character on here... ;-)
I think its more an issue changing the nature of a film character rather than a character from a series of novels, which happens all the time. The thing I don't fully grasp is why the colour of a character's skin is such a significant change, given that Bond on screen has been blond and dark haired, has been Scottish, English and Welsh.
That said, I also don't care for him much in any case, so it doesn't bother me either way. |
I am pretty sure that Jesus did exist but he was almost definitely either black or brown and was the sort of bloke you would find in Whetherspoons on a Monday morning, or at best an early Paul Daniels illusionist type of bod. | |
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| Next James Bond..... on 11:11 - Jul 17 with 6541 views | Superfrans |
| Next James Bond..... on 11:01 - Jul 17 by tcblue |
I suppose I meant more that I don't think you're supposed to like Bond, he's a tosspot. Ridiculing his lack of meeting the modern world was an interesting plot angle, but I think it was a bit of a missed opportunity.
I'm sure Idris Elba could play a misogynistic psychopath just as well as Tom Hiddleston |
The problem is, a whole generation of men (from my dad's age and younger) don't see him as a tosspot, but as someone to aspire to.
I do think one of the issues with the franchise is that it's still being run by the same people fundamentally who did so 50 years-plus ago, to largely the same formula. If it ain't broke, don't fix it etc... But society doesn't think in the way that Bond does any more. And to place the kind of antics that he got up to in the Sixties in a modern day setting simply doesn't work.
The fact that the reason Daniel Craig has wanted out for years (but has been reduced by the cash, basically) is because of the misogyny should tell us everything we need to know about the franchise and where it is right now.
FWIW, I don't much care whether the next Bond is black. I'd rather Idris Elba got the chance to create his own character, more rooted in the modern world, who is less of a tosspot. | |
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| Next James Bond..... on 11:11 - Jul 17 with 6535 views | chicoazul |
| Next James Bond..... on 08:28 - Jul 17 by itfcjoe |
As mentioned - he is a literary character who has been described and detailed numerous times in numerous books. |
Daniel Craig is nothing like the Bond described in the books. |  |
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| Next James Bond..... on 11:13 - Jul 17 with 6530 views | Superfrans |
| Next James Bond..... on 11:11 - Jul 17 by Lord_Lucan |
I am pretty sure that Jesus did exist but he was almost definitely either black or brown and was the sort of bloke you would find in Whetherspoons on a Monday morning, or at best an early Paul Daniels illusionist type of bod. |
Yes, that was my point exactly. Almost certainly not caucasian, but for some reason portrayed like this...
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| Next James Bond..... on 11:15 - Jul 17 with 6521 views | itfcjoe |
| Next James Bond..... on 11:11 - Jul 17 by Superfrans |
The problem is, a whole generation of men (from my dad's age and younger) don't see him as a tosspot, but as someone to aspire to.
I do think one of the issues with the franchise is that it's still being run by the same people fundamentally who did so 50 years-plus ago, to largely the same formula. If it ain't broke, don't fix it etc... But society doesn't think in the way that Bond does any more. And to place the kind of antics that he got up to in the Sixties in a modern day setting simply doesn't work.
The fact that the reason Daniel Craig has wanted out for years (but has been reduced by the cash, basically) is because of the misogyny should tell us everything we need to know about the franchise and where it is right now.
FWIW, I don't much care whether the next Bond is black. I'd rather Idris Elba got the chance to create his own character, more rooted in the modern world, who is less of a tosspot. |
Surely the people get what the people want - if there was an appetitie from the general public to change Bond then he would either need to adapt or die? | |
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| Next James Bond..... on 11:20 - Jul 17 with 6501 views | blue_oyster |
| Next James Bond..... on 11:13 - Jul 17 by Superfrans |
Yes, that was my point exactly. Almost certainly not caucasian, but for some reason portrayed like this...
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Almost certainly? |  |
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| Next James Bond..... on 11:24 - Jul 17 with 6490 views | britbiker |
I have no problem with Dr who being a woman provided it was done simply because the new actress put in the best audition. However the BBC do tend to try to cover every element of equal opportunity. No doubt the next Dr who will be gay. That said if ITV were casting he/she would just sit around a pool all day taking steroids and getting drunk. The politically correct world is great [Post edited 17 Jul 2017 11:26]
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| Next James Bond..... on 11:28 - Jul 17 with 6487 views | factual_blue |
| Next James Bond..... on 10:07 - Jul 17 by BlueBadger |
I find it a bit odd that people can suspend disbelief for a super spy who owns a car that can turn into a submarine but not that he might be black. [Post edited 17 Jul 2017 10:18]
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A flying car would really be stretching credibility to breaking point. | |
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