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First hand account from inside China's Gulag 12:09 - Oct 18 with 1227 viewsSteve_M

This makes for grim reading but it's important:

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-a-million-people-are-jailed


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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:14 - Oct 18 with 979 viewsStokieBlue

Utterly awful and it is unfortunately not being addressed by western countries.

It's nothing short of cultural cleansing.

Did you see this the other week? They have concreted over historic burial grounds to make car parks. It's just so brazen and then to claim it's re-education and it's what the Uighurs want - they must think everyone outside China is an idiot.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/09/chinas-destruction-of-uighur-buria

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:21 - Oct 18 with 966 viewsjjblue84

‘It was a socially and politically uncertain period. Cameras appeared in every public space; the security forces stepped up their presence. At one stage, DNA samples were taken from all members of minorities in the region and our telephone SIM cards were taken from us.’

Remember how this starts before you gladly accept that police are only doing this for your own protection!
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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:23 - Oct 18 with 954 viewsitfcjoe

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:21 - Oct 18 by jjblue84

‘It was a socially and politically uncertain period. Cameras appeared in every public space; the security forces stepped up their presence. At one stage, DNA samples were taken from all members of minorities in the region and our telephone SIM cards were taken from us.’

Remember how this starts before you gladly accept that police are only doing this for your own protection!


Most sensible thing you've said JJ

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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:34 - Oct 18 with 937 viewsStokieBlue

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:23 - Oct 18 by itfcjoe

Most sensible thing you've said JJ


Is it? I would say it's a stupid thing to say that trivialises a very important and disturbing issue.

The UK isn't going to start re-educating people in prisons or putting QR codes on the doors of houses so they have all the information about people in there based on the sole aspect of them having a different religion.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

0

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:35 - Oct 18 with 935 viewsWeWereZombies

"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."

Fyodor Dostoevsky, from 'The House of the Dead '

Ironically, I think, the best chance of reining China in nowadays rests with a resurgent Russia.

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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:47 - Oct 18 with 902 viewscallis

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:21 - Oct 18 by jjblue84

‘It was a socially and politically uncertain period. Cameras appeared in every public space; the security forces stepped up their presence. At one stage, DNA samples were taken from all members of minorities in the region and our telephone SIM cards were taken from us.’

Remember how this starts before you gladly accept that police are only doing this for your own protection!


ACAB.

My hip flask is full of whiskey but my soul feels empty.
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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:50 - Oct 18 with 894 viewscallis

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:14 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue

Utterly awful and it is unfortunately not being addressed by western countries.

It's nothing short of cultural cleansing.

Did you see this the other week? They have concreted over historic burial grounds to make car parks. It's just so brazen and then to claim it's re-education and it's what the Uighurs want - they must think everyone outside China is an idiot.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/09/chinas-destruction-of-uighur-buria

SB


Money will always trump human lives sadly. We're so far gone down a capitalist hole with those who hold money possessing power we'll blow ourselves up or kill the planet before the majority realise perhaps they've been brainwashed into thinking everything is fine.

It does baffle me why we had such boycotts of South Africa in the 80s but this is fine. Emerging market with lots of money to spend and a large population with a cheap labour force changes the sentiment for business I imagine.

My hip flask is full of whiskey but my soul feels empty.
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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:00 - Oct 18 with 873 viewsStokieBlue

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:50 - Oct 18 by callis

Money will always trump human lives sadly. We're so far gone down a capitalist hole with those who hold money possessing power we'll blow ourselves up or kill the planet before the majority realise perhaps they've been brainwashed into thinking everything is fine.

It does baffle me why we had such boycotts of South Africa in the 80s but this is fine. Emerging market with lots of money to spend and a large population with a cheap labour force changes the sentiment for business I imagine.


There was a statement at the UN against China recently but nothing much more than words - it was lead by the US who I guess are penalising Chinese goods but for a totally different reason unfortunately:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-un-xinjiang/u-s-leads-condemnation-

The Chinese literally think the rest of the world are idiots though on this issue - look at what their representative at the UN said:

The Xinjiang issue is not about human rights but about countering separatism and terrorism, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang told a daily news briefing in Beijing on Wednesday.

“All the slander and defamation of the U.S. and other countries is futile.” said Geng. “Their lies will crumble in the face of facts and truth.”

They literally think the way they talk and frame things will work outside of their heavily regulated and censored borders. It's an interesting psychological point I guess.

You are right though, not a single country has even suggested sanctions on China for their actions as far as I know.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:07 - Oct 18 with 862 viewscallis

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:00 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue

There was a statement at the UN against China recently but nothing much more than words - it was lead by the US who I guess are penalising Chinese goods but for a totally different reason unfortunately:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-un-xinjiang/u-s-leads-condemnation-

The Chinese literally think the rest of the world are idiots though on this issue - look at what their representative at the UN said:

The Xinjiang issue is not about human rights but about countering separatism and terrorism, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang told a daily news briefing in Beijing on Wednesday.

“All the slander and defamation of the U.S. and other countries is futile.” said Geng. “Their lies will crumble in the face of facts and truth.”

They literally think the way they talk and frame things will work outside of their heavily regulated and censored borders. It's an interesting psychological point I guess.

You are right though, not a single country has even suggested sanctions on China for their actions as far as I know.

SB


Honestly I sometimes think the world would be a better place without humans. We're a plague on the planet, other species and even ourselves. Baffles me how anyone could partake in or order something so evil on another person.

Then again there are people in the UK who would happily see the same happen to minorities on our own turf based on the fear the media has fed them.

Genuinely feel depressed and sick reading that piece on the OP.

My hip flask is full of whiskey but my soul feels empty.
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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:15 - Oct 18 with 828 viewsDarth_Koont

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:50 - Oct 18 by callis

Money will always trump human lives sadly. We're so far gone down a capitalist hole with those who hold money possessing power we'll blow ourselves up or kill the planet before the majority realise perhaps they've been brainwashed into thinking everything is fine.

It does baffle me why we had such boycotts of South Africa in the 80s but this is fine. Emerging market with lots of money to spend and a large population with a cheap labour force changes the sentiment for business I imagine.


Re: your last para, it doesn't change the sentiment but it certainly limits that sentiment being turned into action. I think people generally know what's right and wrong but getting them to take action is often far harder.

South Africa was "easier" to boycott because of the need for the US to manage its own civil rights issues and aftermath with a large African-American population looking on. As well as the emerging strength of African nations post-Colonialism and getting at their oil and mineral resources. It became an important sphere of influence for the West and especially because the Chinese and Soviets were also looking to get in.

Against all that South Africa just wasn't important enough to protect or even ignore. And the power and financial upsides of boycotting and applying sanctions were too great.

Other human rights issues around the world like this appalling treatment of the Uighurs, the Rohingya genocide, Palestine, Sudan, East Timor, Rwanda etc. just don't seem to have the same "side-benefits" to getting involved. In fact some of them have power and financial downsides to getting involved that see us defending the oppressors.
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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:17 - Oct 18 with 824 viewspinewoodblueboy

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:07 - Oct 18 by callis

Honestly I sometimes think the world would be a better place without humans. We're a plague on the planet, other species and even ourselves. Baffles me how anyone could partake in or order something so evil on another person.

Then again there are people in the UK who would happily see the same happen to minorities on our own turf based on the fear the media has fed them.

Genuinely feel depressed and sick reading that piece on the OP.


Humankind will be the architects of its own destruction.
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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:19 - Oct 18 with 818 viewsStokieBlue

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:17 - Oct 18 by pinewoodblueboy

Humankind will be the architects of its own destruction.


No it won't although it's a trendy thing to say and we are certainly making huge mistakes.

Humans once numbered less than 8000 individuals after the Toba super-volcano eruption but they bounced back without any of the technology we have now.

We might have gone a bit off course but there is understanding of that now so hopefully it will be rectified over the next century. I guess it's possible we might engineer a plague but apart from the humans will persist even if it's not in the current form or societies.

SB
[Post edited 18 Oct 13:20]

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

0
First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:20 - Oct 18 with 811 viewsitfcjoe

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:34 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue

Is it? I would say it's a stupid thing to say that trivialises a very important and disturbing issue.

The UK isn't going to start re-educating people in prisons or putting QR codes on the doors of houses so they have all the information about people in there based on the sole aspect of them having a different religion.

SB


No, but if we start handing over too much data it is where it COULD lead.

ID cards, DNA databases etc.

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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:21 - Oct 18 with 804 viewscallis

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:15 - Oct 18 by Darth_Koont

Re: your last para, it doesn't change the sentiment but it certainly limits that sentiment being turned into action. I think people generally know what's right and wrong but getting them to take action is often far harder.

South Africa was "easier" to boycott because of the need for the US to manage its own civil rights issues and aftermath with a large African-American population looking on. As well as the emerging strength of African nations post-Colonialism and getting at their oil and mineral resources. It became an important sphere of influence for the West and especially because the Chinese and Soviets were also looking to get in.

Against all that South Africa just wasn't important enough to protect or even ignore. And the power and financial upsides of boycotting and applying sanctions were too great.

Other human rights issues around the world like this appalling treatment of the Uighurs, the Rohingya genocide, Palestine, Sudan, East Timor, Rwanda etc. just don't seem to have the same "side-benefits" to getting involved. In fact some of them have power and financial downsides to getting involved that see us defending the oppressors.


You've done nothing to cheer me up there :(

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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:22 - Oct 18 with 803 viewsDarth_Koont

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:17 - Oct 18 by pinewoodblueboy

Humankind will be the architects of its own destruction.


Important to point out that we're generally getting better at spotting and calling out human rights issues around the world. Nobody would have blinked an eye at this sort of atrocity 50-100 years ago.

Still a long way to go particularly when power, money, political ideology or religion tend to blind us but I believe we're still making progress as a human race.
[Post edited 18 Oct 13:22]
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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:23 - Oct 18 with 796 viewscallis

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:19 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue

No it won't although it's a trendy thing to say and we are certainly making huge mistakes.

Humans once numbered less than 8000 individuals after the Toba super-volcano eruption but they bounced back without any of the technology we have now.

We might have gone a bit off course but there is understanding of that now so hopefully it will be rectified over the next century. I guess it's possible we might engineer a plague but apart from the humans will persist even if it's not in the current form or societies.

SB
[Post edited 18 Oct 13:20]


I've played enough Fall Out 4 to know how to rebuild a society.

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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:27 - Oct 18 with 781 viewsSwansea_Blue

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:14 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue

Utterly awful and it is unfortunately not being addressed by western countries.

It's nothing short of cultural cleansing.

Did you see this the other week? They have concreted over historic burial grounds to make car parks. It's just so brazen and then to claim it's re-education and it's what the Uighurs want - they must think everyone outside China is an idiot.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/09/chinas-destruction-of-uighur-buria

SB


They know they can get away with it. See Tibet, etc.

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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:29 - Oct 18 with 779 viewsStokieBlue

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:20 - Oct 18 by itfcjoe

No, but if we start handing over too much data it is where it COULD lead.

ID cards, DNA databases etc.


You honestly believe that?

I think it detracts from the real issue with unnecessary hyperbole. There are not going to be camps with millions of people in the UK. You know that and I know that so why belittle the actual issue that is happening with silly comparisons.

You're against ID cards?

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

0
First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:39 - Oct 18 with 756 viewsWeWereZombies

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:22 - Oct 18 by Darth_Koont

Important to point out that we're generally getting better at spotting and calling out human rights issues around the world. Nobody would have blinked an eye at this sort of atrocity 50-100 years ago.

Still a long way to go particularly when power, money, political ideology or religion tend to blind us but I believe we're still making progress as a human race.
[Post edited 18 Oct 13:22]


Fifty years ago people were objecting to the 'cultural revolution' in Mao's China but it was overshadowed by concerns about the war in Vietnam.

One hundred years ago international pressure tried to bring the Ottomans to account for the Armenian genocide, to no avail.

So for centuries the human race has been spotting and calling out atrocities, including British internment of the Boers, but we seem not to have improved our ability to deter or even limit the perpetrators.

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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 14:05 - Oct 18 with 722 viewsbrazil1982

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:35 - Oct 18 by WeWereZombies

"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."

Fyodor Dostoevsky, from 'The House of the Dead '

Ironically, I think, the best chance of reining China in nowadays rests with a resurgent Russia.


I doubt it - there are large land areas in the East of Russia that are being rented by the Russian government to Chinese companies - mainly for agriculture. There are more Chinese citizens living in some of these areas than Russian. Will likely lead to an annexation in the future.
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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 14:11 - Oct 18 with 710 viewsStokieBlue

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 14:05 - Oct 18 by brazil1982

I doubt it - there are large land areas in the East of Russia that are being rented by the Russian government to Chinese companies - mainly for agriculture. There are more Chinese citizens living in some of these areas than Russian. Will likely lead to an annexation in the future.


Whilst China does feel it has a historical right to vast patches of Siberia the current arrangement is purely economic. It is starting to cause issues with the local populations but China aren't going to annex parts of Russia.

They might have more money and a bigger military but it's currently less advanced and that would be totally suicidal. Russia could wreck China if push came to shove.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

1

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 14:23 - Oct 18 with 692 viewshampstead_blue

Awful.
It shows just how fickle and limp politics is when nobody is standing up to them.

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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 14:33 - Oct 18 with 678 viewsitfcjoe

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 13:29 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue

You honestly believe that?

I think it detracts from the real issue with unnecessary hyperbole. There are not going to be camps with millions of people in the UK. You know that and I know that so why belittle the actual issue that is happening with silly comparisons.

You're against ID cards?

SB


I'm not trying to belittle the actual situation - just stating how I don't agree with so much information being held on everyone whoever it is by, and that every individual pie of info taken can be explained away but can lead to situations like this without too many leaps.

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First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 14:37 - Oct 18 with 664 viewsStokieBlue

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 14:33 - Oct 18 by itfcjoe

I'm not trying to belittle the actual situation - just stating how I don't agree with so much information being held on everyone whoever it is by, and that every individual pie of info taken can be explained away but can lead to situations like this without too many leaps.


Fair enough.

I'm not sure it's the same this though. One is abusing information to run a controlled state and the other is trying to erase a culture from history.

This isn't about China's use of information, it's about this disregard for cultures and histories which aren't their own and their intolerance of any other culture or ideas within their borders.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

0
First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 14:48 - Oct 18 with 633 viewsjjblue84

First hand account from inside China's Gulag on 12:34 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue

Is it? I would say it's a stupid thing to say that trivialises a very important and disturbing issue.

The UK isn't going to start re-educating people in prisons or putting QR codes on the doors of houses so they have all the information about people in there based on the sole aspect of them having a different religion.

SB


By the time you notice you’ve lost your freedom, it will be far too late...
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