| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? 12:09 - Feb 27 with 11319 views | KernewekBlue |
I'm interested to know who you think is at fault for our current predicament. Does the blame for our woes rest with Paul Lambert or does it sit at the feet of Marcus Evans? |  |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 14:50 - Feb 27 with 3341 views | No9 |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:57 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
Thanks for your opinion.
Yes, I do believe you are correct.
Marcus Evans has been a disastrous owner from day 1.
Apparently, didn't his mate good ol' Harry Redknapp give him the benefit of his advice once or twice... or was it Sandra Redknapp? |
However, we should never forget it was Shepshanks that put the club in an uneviable position e.g administration then, instead of re-bilding the club he sold it & maybe he was the only one to prfit from the demise of ITFC? |  | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 15:03 - Feb 27 with 3331 views | Pecker |
As I thought, you were just looking for an argument. |  | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 15:46 - Feb 27 with 3309 views | Darth_Koont |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 14:41 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
Well put.
Things have been awry with our club for a long time but certainly got a lot worse when Marcus Evans took charge.
His appointment of Roy Keane, for me, was one of the darkest days in our recent history. I never liked or trusted the bloke. Seriously underwhelming stats as ITFC manager and not a nice guy.
Paul Jewell... seemed like a decent chap but not a great manager. Lost more than he won.
McCarthy... Big head, big mouth... did OK to start with but toed the company line whilst not setting the world alight. Lost the fans through his arrogance. Stats nothing to write home about whilst serving up mediocre hoofball week in, week out. Dwindling gates. Had to go.
Hurst... Way, way, way out of his depth... complete and utter shambles!
Paul Lambert... Seemingly another nice guy but his stats are also well below par.
It seems to me that, either ALL of these managers appointed by Evans are average or below or they are not being given the ammunition to have a real go at promotion.
Let's hope the kids coming through are good enough, don't get sold for a handful of magic beans and can take us onwards and upwards... I fear that's our only hope going forwards. |
I think you're very harsh on Mick. His tenure was a period when he pulled us back from the brink, got us competing well enough to challenge at the top within 2 seasons, and kept us competitive while we tightened our belts and spent money on the academy/young player development instead.
Mick only got the first early fruits of that in his last season so not enough to make us challenge. Nevertheless he managed to raise the value of the squad significantly with a very small outlay.
That last year was a season where with a bit more money, a bit more confidence, a bit more patience and a lot more awareness of how well we were doing in context we could have been on the verge of building something decent. But we threw all that away and the focus on our own player development within a few short weeks of the summer window.
It's not a case of BCWYWF because what we wish for can be as ambitious as we want. It's more TABMDAHWGT ... think a bit more deeply about how we get there. |  |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 16:36 - Feb 28 with 3243 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 15:03 - Feb 27 by Pecker |
As I thought, you were just looking for an argument. |
Not at all, I was simply trying to encourage debate.
I have an opinion of my own which I try to put forward as a starting point for discussion and then watch for the rebuttals to be posted. I can take on board that not everyone sees things the same way but I don't, however, have to agree with anyone else's opinion.
I can also appreciate a bit of light humour being added to the mix but some people seem a little too challenged of mind to be serious for any great length of time... which can get a little tedious.
If you can make a valid point and back it up with a well thought out argument then that's fine. If you post something just for the hell of it that is not so well thought out or well reasoned, I am at liberty to disagree and give the reasons why I do so. This is a forum, after all!
I do, however, defend your right to have an opposing opinion.
Simple as that. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 16:41 - Feb 28 with 3237 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 14:50 - Feb 27 by No9 |
However, we should never forget it was Shepshanks that put the club in an uneviable position e.g administration then, instead of re-bilding the club he sold it & maybe he was the only one to prfit from the demise of ITFC? |
A good point well made.
Perhaps most of our woes all stem from that moment onward.
Having got us out of administration, It was Sheepshank's decision to sell the club to Marcus Evans that has seen us die a slow death and sink down the league tables to where we find ourselves now. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 16:53 - Feb 28 with 3231 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 15:46 - Feb 27 by Darth_Koont |
I think you're very harsh on Mick. His tenure was a period when he pulled us back from the brink, got us competing well enough to challenge at the top within 2 seasons, and kept us competitive while we tightened our belts and spent money on the academy/young player development instead.
Mick only got the first early fruits of that in his last season so not enough to make us challenge. Nevertheless he managed to raise the value of the squad significantly with a very small outlay.
That last year was a season where with a bit more money, a bit more confidence, a bit more patience and a lot more awareness of how well we were doing in context we could have been on the verge of building something decent. But we threw all that away and the focus on our own player development within a few short weeks of the summer window.
It's not a case of BCWYWF because what we wish for can be as ambitious as we want. It's more TABMDAHWGT ... think a bit more deeply about how we get there. |
McCarthy's stats, though better than some of the others before him, were nothing special.
As I stated previously, he started fairly well and certainly proved to be a boost when he arrived but it was never enough to get us over the line. He was certainly a company man when it came to operating on a shoestring and working within Marcus Evans' real agenda. Keeping us in The Championship with no net investment. He did have an eye for picking up cheap talent, I'll give him that.
However, he only won 9 more matches than he lost but he did draw quite a few through playing negative, sideways hoofball. Not something the fans found terribly attractive to witness on a weekly basis, as the dwindling gate numbers bore out.
Add to that his arrogance and swearing at the home fans when they dared to complain about the rubbish being played on the pitch and you had the recipe for a timely sacking!
His continuing as manager was simply untenable. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 17:44 - Feb 28 with 3210 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:35 - Feb 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
That those players, with the exception of Wilson who I didn’t mention, will be on expensive wages in comparison to our League One peers, quite obviously
Also please feel free to name the League One sides that have spent more than the amount listed below. It will be a short list [Post edited 27 Feb 2020 13:48]
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"That those players, with the exception of Wilson who I didn’t mention, will be on expensive wages in comparison to our League One peers, quite obviously"
Really?
What are our new recruits being paid in comparison to players at other League 1 clubs?
Please do enlighten me. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 04:54 - Feb 29 with 3165 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 17:44 - Feb 28 by KernewekBlue |
"That those players, with the exception of Wilson who I didn’t mention, will be on expensive wages in comparison to our League One peers, quite obviously"
Really?
What are our new recruits being paid in comparison to players at other League 1 clubs?
Please do enlighten me. |
Seriously?
Holy was the starting goalkeeper of the team 1 place below us in the table. He signed for us as we could offer him significantly more. Similarly Norwood was a fellow League One sides best player who we blew out of the water financially, not to mention other League One and even Championship sides that were reportedly interested
Keane and Judge will quite obviously be amongst the highest paid players in the division, given their backgrounds. Garbutt is on c28k a week at Everton - we won’t be paying all of that but it will be a significant chunk
Pretty odd point to argue IMO, when club accounts are published our wage bill will almost certainly be either the biggest or second biggest in the division. Are you Paul Lambert? |  |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 05:08 - Feb 29 with 3158 views | jeera |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:19 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
I have my own opinion, yes, but I will continue to play devil's advocate.
Which "points" that I have made are ridiculous? |
Making things up isn't playing devil's advocate.
You were quick to suggest the club is some kind of tax loss.
This nonsense has been dismissed time and again.
I can only assume you never read this forum, ever. |  |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 10:07 - Feb 29 with 3122 views | r2d2 |
Evans overall, why own a football club if you show no interest in it?
Lambert this season, why he rotated the team like he did was just plain ridiculous.
That 5 year contract. Unbelievably stupid from Evans. |  | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:52 - Feb 29 with 3090 views | jas0999 |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:15 - Feb 27 by Superblue95 |
I’ve said it before but Marcus Evans was the main contributor to us ending up in this division.
Lambert is the sole reason we are staying here (as well as being part of the reason we got relegated) |
Agreed. | | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:33 - Feb 29 with 3073 views | Darth_Koont |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 16:53 - Feb 28 by KernewekBlue |
McCarthy's stats, though better than some of the others before him, were nothing special.
As I stated previously, he started fairly well and certainly proved to be a boost when he arrived but it was never enough to get us over the line. He was certainly a company man when it came to operating on a shoestring and working within Marcus Evans' real agenda. Keeping us in The Championship with no net investment. He did have an eye for picking up cheap talent, I'll give him that.
However, he only won 9 more matches than he lost but he did draw quite a few through playing negative, sideways hoofball. Not something the fans found terribly attractive to witness on a weekly basis, as the dwindling gate numbers bore out.
Add to that his arrogance and swearing at the home fans when they dared to complain about the rubbish being played on the pitch and you had the recipe for a timely sacking!
His continuing as manager was simply untenable. |
Well, the context is that even with less spending than the managers before or since his record stands up and even surpasses theirs. That's over a longer period and that's even inheriting an old, expensive squad in awful shape and then developing players including our own talent to leave us with a squad that had built up significant value.
And even the football was as good if not better overall. Much as people hate to accept that.
I agree things felt stale but that's down to the nearly 20 years we'd been in the division and the less ambitious spending.
His "arrogance" was that Mick and the players knew all that as well as enough people looking on. The numbskulls who got triggered just couldn't or wouldn't see it. They thought they were right but it's all too clear they were wrong. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 11:39 - Mar 2 with 3007 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:33 - Feb 29 by Darth_Koont |
Well, the context is that even with less spending than the managers before or since his record stands up and even surpasses theirs. That's over a longer period and that's even inheriting an old, expensive squad in awful shape and then developing players including our own talent to leave us with a squad that had built up significant value.
And even the football was as good if not better overall. Much as people hate to accept that.
I agree things felt stale but that's down to the nearly 20 years we'd been in the division and the less ambitious spending.
His "arrogance" was that Mick and the players knew all that as well as enough people looking on. The numbskulls who got triggered just couldn't or wouldn't see it. They thought they were right but it's all too clear they were wrong. |
I agree with some of what you say but the fact remains that we were starting to slide, year on year. The football WAS bad and the results were nothing to write home about. We would never have progressed under McCarthy coaching his negative sideways style with frequent hoofs upfield into thin air.
His prehistoric style left the fanbase so nonplussed that they dwindled away from matches, not bothering to go and watch the dross he encouraged week after week.
As I said previously, add his arrogance into the mix and his rudeness to the paying public and his situation was untenable. He had to go, whatever the consequences, simple as that! | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 11:48 - Mar 2 with 2992 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 05:08 - Feb 29 by jeera |
Making things up isn't playing devil's advocate.
You were quick to suggest the club is some kind of tax loss.
This nonsense has been dismissed time and again.
I can only assume you never read this forum, ever. |
I haven't made anything up. I suggested that, in my opinion, it must be some sort of tax dodge otherwise why would a successful businessman hang on to the white elephant that is losing him money year on year? Where is the business sense in that?
That nonsense has been dismissed by whom? Evans himself?? You???
I can only assume you don't digest or really think about what you're able to read, ever! | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 11:54 - Mar 2 with 2984 views | Darth_Koont |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 11:39 - Mar 2 by KernewekBlue |
I agree with some of what you say but the fact remains that we were starting to slide, year on year. The football WAS bad and the results were nothing to write home about. We would never have progressed under McCarthy coaching his negative sideways style with frequent hoofs upfield into thin air.
His prehistoric style left the fanbase so nonplussed that they dwindled away from matches, not bothering to go and watch the dross he encouraged week after week.
As I said previously, add his arrogance into the mix and his rudeness to the paying public and his situation was untenable. He had to go, whatever the consequences, simple as that! |
Although McCarthy did bring fans back before and got us challenging.
I think the problem after that was that level wasn't sustainable except financially when Evans tightened our belt - and this was too early for our renewed focus and investment in home-grown players to really kick in.
Obviously by the end the relationship had broken down between Mick and too many fans. But a little more awareness of the overall and off-field context (on both sides) would have gone a long way. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:16 - Mar 2 with 2966 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 11:39 - Mar 2 by KernewekBlue |
I agree with some of what you say but the fact remains that we were starting to slide, year on year. The football WAS bad and the results were nothing to write home about. We would never have progressed under McCarthy coaching his negative sideways style with frequent hoofs upfield into thin air.
His prehistoric style left the fanbase so nonplussed that they dwindled away from matches, not bothering to go and watch the dross he encouraged week after week.
As I said previously, add his arrogance into the mix and his rudeness to the paying public and his situation was untenable. He had to go, whatever the consequences, simple as that! |
We weren’t sliding year on year though, in McCarthy’s final season we finished 12th, having finished 16th the season before | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:17 - Mar 2 with 2961 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 11:48 - Mar 2 by KernewekBlue |
I haven't made anything up. I suggested that, in my opinion, it must be some sort of tax dodge otherwise why would a successful businessman hang on to the white elephant that is losing him money year on year? Where is the business sense in that?
That nonsense has been dismissed by whom? Evans himself?? You???
I can only assume you don't digest or really think about what you're able to read, ever! |
Dismissed by anyone with even a basic understanding of business finance
Having a business losing money may save you tax on other companies profits, but there is still an overall net loss. It is effectively like losing a £1 to save 25p | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:25 - Mar 2 with 2952 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 04:54 - Feb 29 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Seriously?
Holy was the starting goalkeeper of the team 1 place below us in the table. He signed for us as we could offer him significantly more. Similarly Norwood was a fellow League One sides best player who we blew out of the water financially, not to mention other League One and even Championship sides that were reportedly interested
Keane and Judge will quite obviously be amongst the highest paid players in the division, given their backgrounds. Garbutt is on c28k a week at Everton - we won’t be paying all of that but it will be a significant chunk
Pretty odd point to argue IMO, when club accounts are published our wage bill will almost certainly be either the biggest or second biggest in the division. Are you Paul Lambert? |
Where is the cold, hard proof in what you're saying?
Back up your "obviously" with some accurate figures!
Are you Marcus Evans? | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:33 - Mar 2 with 2943 views | KernewekBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:17 - Mar 2 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Dismissed by anyone with even a basic understanding of business finance
Having a business losing money may save you tax on other companies profits, but there is still an overall net loss. It is effectively like losing a £1 to save 25p |
Well, you're "obviously" a financial genius and business guru who should give Evans the benefit of your vast knowledge of money matters.
If only he had employed you to oversee his footballing investment, I'm sure you'd turn his fortunes around... "obviously"!
"Obviously", everything you say must be true, even without stating the facts.
Well done you, "Obviously"! | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:12 - Mar 2 with 2917 views | longtimefan |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:33 - Mar 2 by KernewekBlue |
Well, you're "obviously" a financial genius and business guru who should give Evans the benefit of your vast knowledge of money matters.
If only he had employed you to oversee his footballing investment, I'm sure you'd turn his fortunes around... "obviously"!
"Obviously", everything you say must be true, even without stating the facts.
Well done you, "Obviously"! |
Try this example for size. Copied direct from another thread.
"The losses do get offset, but that doesn’t actually mean Evans makes money from them. It still costs him more, as the loss is only partially offset as tax is only paid on profit and he’d make more money by not making the loss in the first place. Here’s an example:
Say ITFC lose £10M and Evans’ Group make £10M. No profit and so no tax paid.
Sounds great, but contrast with,
ITFC lose £2M and Evans’ Group make £10M. Overall £8M profit, so around 20% tax payable (£1.6M) leaving an overall profit of £6.4M.
I’ll leave you to work out which scenario works best for Evans (a clue, it isn’t the first)"
Seeing as your asking Healy for accurate figures on wages perhaps you can provide some details on the tax dodge! | | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:27 - Mar 2 with 2899 views | jeera |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 11:48 - Mar 2 by KernewekBlue |
I haven't made anything up. I suggested that, in my opinion, it must be some sort of tax dodge otherwise why would a successful businessman hang on to the white elephant that is losing him money year on year? Where is the business sense in that?
That nonsense has been dismissed by whom? Evans himself?? You???
I can only assume you don't digest or really think about what you're able to read, ever! |
Instead of being a knob about it why not take on board the hundreds, yes hundreds of posts that have been made on the subject over the past few years.
Let me give you a clue right here:
"I can only assume you never read this forum, ever."
Losing money on a business doesn't gain you money somewhere else. You can offset all you like but that doesn't offer any gains.
It's not difficult. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:29 - Mar 2 with 2892 views | jeera |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:33 - Mar 2 by KernewekBlue |
Well, you're "obviously" a financial genius and business guru who should give Evans the benefit of your vast knowledge of money matters.
If only he had employed you to oversee his footballing investment, I'm sure you'd turn his fortunes around... "obviously"!
"Obviously", everything you say must be true, even without stating the facts.
Well done you, "Obviously"! |
The subject has been covered a zillion times.
You're late to the party and trying to throw your weight around and getting snotty because no one's listening to your half-baked ideas. | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:37 - Mar 2 with 2879 views | RegencyBlue |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:12 - Feb 27 by KernewekBlue |
Unfortunately, the squad is NOT good enough!
Failure to invest when given the opportunity to make doubly sure you have enough depth and talent to compete over a whole season is preparing to fail... yet again.
Marcus Evans has learnt nothing about football since taking the helm at this club... nothing.
His past mistakes will be repeated ad infinitum until he wrecks this club beyond repair. |
I think we getting to the tipping point with Evans ownership.
We are not far off from being damaged beyond repair already and another round of cost cutting and panic player sales in the summer should just about do for us! |  | | |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:50 - Mar 2 with 2857 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:25 - Mar 2 by KernewekBlue |
Where is the cold, hard proof in what you're saying?
Back up your "obviously" with some accurate figures!
Are you Marcus Evans? |
The cold hard proof will come when League One clubs accounts for this year are released
In the meantime, there are a couple of useful reference points that can be used. Sunderland’s Chief Exec for example referenced their £15m wage bill last season, down to £10m this time around as being the highest in League One history:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.sunderlandecho.com/sport/football/sunderland-
Meanwhile, our accounts confirm a wage bill of £18.95m last season, which whilst no doubt now reduced, shows that our bill is likely to be significant
Coventry by comparison are having their accounts analysed by Kieran Maguire today, and had a wage bill of £4.8m | |
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| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 13:52 - Mar 2 with 2845 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Where does the fault lie for our current downturn? on 12:33 - Mar 2 by KernewekBlue |
Well, you're "obviously" a financial genius and business guru who should give Evans the benefit of your vast knowledge of money matters.
If only he had employed you to oversee his footballing investment, I'm sure you'd turn his fortunes around... "obviously"!
"Obviously", everything you say must be true, even without stating the facts.
Well done you, "Obviously"! |
Not really convinced recognising that losing a large amount of money to save a smaller % of it in tax doesn’t really stack up makes you a financial genius, but thanks for the compliment anyway | |
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