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International break - check. More time to find loads of twitter posts to counter this - check. Busy time for Phil - Check.
Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing.
It’s impossible to understand the personal criticism against Corbyn without recognising that it’s nearly always in the context of a wider debate over the behaviour of Israel towards the Palestinian people.
Corbyn has been a long standing campaigner for Palestinian rights for decades. Those official and establishment Jewish voices that say they fear a Corbyn government tell us they do so because they fear a radical change in the safety and security of Jews in Britain. But a more credible explanation for their accusations is the possibility of a radical change in the attitude of the British government towards the State of Israel. But in merely expressing the possibility of a political motive behind the attacks, one quickly becomes branded as anti-Jewish. Freedom of speech gets buried alive in this war over the meaning of antisemitism.
Having noted this central aspect of the saga, it’s also true that some on the left make themselves, and by association Corbyn, easy targets for justified criticism. The left’s emphasis on the wrongs of empire, colonialism and racism lead to a small minority expressing an obsessive and un-nuanced understanding of Zionist thinking which too easily trips into antisemitism.
It’s true too that Israel/Palestine has become a totemic cause on the left, much as South African apartheid was in the 70s and 80s or the Vietnam War in the 60s. But there are perfectly legitimate reasons for wanting to highlight Israel as a nation with a long and on-going history of human rights abuses which western leaders choose not to act against. A few on the left will make the lazy mistake of falling into anti-Jewish rhetoric to explain why this has happened. This in turn enables the professional advocates for Israel to label all anti-Israel criticism on the left as founded on nothing more than antisemitism.
Good link. I posted that a day or two ago so hope more people address it.
There's also this which is quite important to understand in this context and why the likes of the Jewish Chronicle and their editor Stephen Pollard should be trusted as much as the Daily Mail and Paul Dacre are/were.
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 09:52 - Nov 16 by Bent_double
Extract from the (long) article:
It’s impossible to understand the personal criticism against Corbyn without recognising that it’s nearly always in the context of a wider debate over the behaviour of Israel towards the Palestinian people.
Corbyn has been a long standing campaigner for Palestinian rights for decades. Those official and establishment Jewish voices that say they fear a Corbyn government tell us they do so because they fear a radical change in the safety and security of Jews in Britain. But a more credible explanation for their accusations is the possibility of a radical change in the attitude of the British government towards the State of Israel. But in merely expressing the possibility of a political motive behind the attacks, one quickly becomes branded as anti-Jewish. Freedom of speech gets buried alive in this war over the meaning of antisemitism.
Having noted this central aspect of the saga, it’s also true that some on the left make themselves, and by association Corbyn, easy targets for justified criticism. The left’s emphasis on the wrongs of empire, colonialism and racism lead to a small minority expressing an obsessive and un-nuanced understanding of Zionist thinking which too easily trips into antisemitism.
It’s true too that Israel/Palestine has become a totemic cause on the left, much as South African apartheid was in the 70s and 80s or the Vietnam War in the 60s. But there are perfectly legitimate reasons for wanting to highlight Israel as a nation with a long and on-going history of human rights abuses which western leaders choose not to act against. A few on the left will make the lazy mistake of falling into anti-Jewish rhetoric to explain why this has happened. This in turn enables the professional advocates for Israel to label all anti-Israel criticism on the left as founded on nothing more than antisemitism.
The problem for me is that whilst I'm not convinced either way about the Dear Leader's personal antisemitism credentials, what he does do is associate with and continue to associate with these people. And then, when people say 'have you seen how dodgy these people are' he takes the least action he can get away with when dealing with them:
Case in point: Ken Livingstone. Plenty of previous of This Sort Of Thing, a slap round the wrists, suspension and allowed to quietly slither out of the door with warm words from from the Dear Leader. This carry-on is what makes people suspicious that you may harbour similar bigotries and ignorance yourself.
See also: anyone professing to support UKIP and/or Chairman Nige's Pension Fund Party - sure, you might not be a bigot yourself, but you're more than happy to line up alongside them.
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 11:41 - Nov 16 by BlueBadger
The problem for me is that whilst I'm not convinced either way about the Dear Leader's personal antisemitism credentials, what he does do is associate with and continue to associate with these people. And then, when people say 'have you seen how dodgy these people are' he takes the least action he can get away with when dealing with them:
Case in point: Ken Livingstone. Plenty of previous of This Sort Of Thing, a slap round the wrists, suspension and allowed to quietly slither out of the door with warm words from from the Dear Leader. This carry-on is what makes people suspicious that you may harbour similar bigotries and ignorance yourself.
See also: anyone professing to support UKIP and/or Chairman Nige's Pension Fund Party - sure, you might not be a bigot yourself, but you're more than happy to line up alongside them.
But was what Livingstone said antisemitic? I agree it was clumsy and borderline offensive but Hitler was only brought up directly in connection with Naz Shah's tweet about Israel's apartheid policies that “Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal”. Which itself is only offensive if you think using the strongest and clearest example of her underlying point is meant to offend Jews rather than reveal the silliness of the Israeli regime's claims of legitimacy for their actions.
But we then had John Mann who is a bit of loon shouting at Livingstone and calling him an antisemite and the case was set. Much like Margaret Hodge did in her rant against Corbyn. Since then no-one even looks at what was said and whether it was actually antisemitic in nature.
You can at least admit that this is MASSIVELY politicised and that a more forensic approach has been missing. Yes, people should have more care in their language and be aware that they should never make comments that gratuitously link the Israeli government to the Nazis. Livingstone was in that grey zone because of the question about Hitler and the Jews he was asked. He was careless and a little too flippant IMO with his explanation but antisemitic is a stretch.
0
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 12:33 - Nov 16 with 2509 views
But was what Livingstone said antisemitic? I agree it was clumsy and borderline offensive but Hitler was only brought up directly in connection with Naz Shah's tweet about Israel's apartheid policies that “Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal”. Which itself is only offensive if you think using the strongest and clearest example of her underlying point is meant to offend Jews rather than reveal the silliness of the Israeli regime's claims of legitimacy for their actions.
But we then had John Mann who is a bit of loon shouting at Livingstone and calling him an antisemite and the case was set. Much like Margaret Hodge did in her rant against Corbyn. Since then no-one even looks at what was said and whether it was actually antisemitic in nature.
You can at least admit that this is MASSIVELY politicised and that a more forensic approach has been missing. Yes, people should have more care in their language and be aware that they should never make comments that gratuitously link the Israeli government to the Nazis. Livingstone was in that grey zone because of the question about Hitler and the Jews he was asked. He was careless and a little too flippant IMO with his explanation but antisemitic is a stretch.
It's not like it was Livingstone's first offence.
SB
“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."
i think when you need to celebrate when you find individual jews who don't feel threatened by corbyn's labour party it pretty well illustrates the nature of the problem. the outcome of the full investigation into the party for institutional anti-semitism, the first ever such investigation into a political party, will tell us more.
[Post edited 16 Nov 2019 13:06]
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-4
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 13:08 - Nov 16 with 2383 views
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 13:06 - Nov 16 by lowhouseblue
i think when you need to celebrate when you find individual jews who don't feel threatened by corbyn's labour party it pretty well illustrates the nature of the problem. the outcome of the full investigation into the party for institutional anti-semitism, the first ever such investigation into a political party, will tell us more.
[Post edited 16 Nov 2019 13:06]
It's not a celebration, nor is it individual Jews.
2
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 13:32 - Nov 16 with 2324 views
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 12:38 - Nov 16 by noggin
Hardly equates to institutional anti-semitism though does it?
Where did I say it did? I posted specifically about Livingstone so not sure what your response is supposed to achieve.
SB
“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."
0
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 13:55 - Nov 16 with 2287 views
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 12:42 - Nov 16 by Darth_Koont
Depends if you equate anti-Zionism with antisemitism as a lot of people do including the head of the Campaign Against Antisemitism.
I don't. Nor do many Jews.
That's why we have to be more forensic with what is actually said, as opposed to taking as read what some hardliners are accusing.
Have your applied that to everything he's said or just to this instance? My post was about all his various comments.
How about the time he compared a Jewish man to a concentration camp guard? What about the other instances where he's recommended anti-Jewish Muslim scholars to teach in the UK? What are the hardliners accusing in those instances?
He's a nasty piece of work.
That doesn't mean Labour are institutionally antisemitic - I don't believe they sit around in the shadow cabinet thinking of how to be anti-Jewish. I do think they tend to have a higher level of tolerance for some comments than they probably should as a membership though. My posts were specifically about Livingstone though.
SB
[Post edited 16 Nov 2019 14:08]
“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."
0
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 14:28 - Nov 16 with 2257 views
There's no question that the same level of scrutiny against Labour here is not placed on the Tories for example even though they themselves know they have problems with Islam. It has simply been swept under the carpet and the media has barely battered an eyelid.
That isn't standing up for Labour here, the reality is that society is still quite a bit more racist than we like to think and certain issues are highlighted more than others.
An uncomfortable reality of Brexit is that it has encouraged the racists to become more bold and out in the open. They have undoubtedly felt emboldened by the result.
We really need a mature debate about it and how we can look to solve it.
[Post edited 16 Nov 2019 14:30]
Alcohol is the answer but I can't remember the question!
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 09:52 - Nov 16 by Bent_double
Extract from the (long) article:
It’s impossible to understand the personal criticism against Corbyn without recognising that it’s nearly always in the context of a wider debate over the behaviour of Israel towards the Palestinian people.
Corbyn has been a long standing campaigner for Palestinian rights for decades. Those official and establishment Jewish voices that say they fear a Corbyn government tell us they do so because they fear a radical change in the safety and security of Jews in Britain. But a more credible explanation for their accusations is the possibility of a radical change in the attitude of the British government towards the State of Israel. But in merely expressing the possibility of a political motive behind the attacks, one quickly becomes branded as anti-Jewish. Freedom of speech gets buried alive in this war over the meaning of antisemitism.
Having noted this central aspect of the saga, it’s also true that some on the left make themselves, and by association Corbyn, easy targets for justified criticism. The left’s emphasis on the wrongs of empire, colonialism and racism lead to a small minority expressing an obsessive and un-nuanced understanding of Zionist thinking which too easily trips into antisemitism.
It’s true too that Israel/Palestine has become a totemic cause on the left, much as South African apartheid was in the 70s and 80s or the Vietnam War in the 60s. But there are perfectly legitimate reasons for wanting to highlight Israel as a nation with a long and on-going history of human rights abuses which western leaders choose not to act against. A few on the left will make the lazy mistake of falling into anti-Jewish rhetoric to explain why this has happened. This in turn enables the professional advocates for Israel to label all anti-Israel criticism on the left as founded on nothing more than antisemitism.
"In a 2002 interview with American journalist Amy Goodman, Aloni said that charges of antisemitism are "a trick we use" to suppress criticism of Israel coming from within the United States, while for criticism coming from Europe "we bring up the Holocaust." source: wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulamit_Aloni
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 14:29 - Nov 16 by caught-in-limbo
"In a 2002 interview with American journalist Amy Goodman, Aloni said that charges of antisemitism are "a trick we use" to suppress criticism of Israel coming from within the United States, while for criticism coming from Europe "we bring up the Holocaust." source: wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulamit_Aloni
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 13:55 - Nov 16 by StokieBlue
Have your applied that to everything he's said or just to this instance? My post was about all his various comments.
How about the time he compared a Jewish man to a concentration camp guard? What about the other instances where he's recommended anti-Jewish Muslim scholars to teach in the UK? What are the hardliners accusing in those instances?
He's a nasty piece of work.
That doesn't mean Labour are institutionally antisemitic - I don't believe they sit around in the shadow cabinet thinking of how to be anti-Jewish. I do think they tend to have a higher level of tolerance for some comments than they probably should as a membership though. My posts were specifically about Livingstone though.
SB
[Post edited 16 Nov 2019 14:08]
As I say, I think he's clumsy and borderline offensive.
The journalist revealed he was Jewish after Livingstone had accused his paper of being like German war criminals. Not sure what difference his Jewishness makes to the analogy but of course Livingstone shouldn't have doubled down on the analogy after that. Hard to argue that this is antisemitic though.
Yes, these Muslim scholars are antisemitic, they're also misogynistic and homophobic. But that doesn't mean he's a misogynist or a homophobe. It also doesn't mean supporters of Israel are necessarily islamophobes or that the Tory support for Hungary's Orban was antisemitic in nature. Clearly when you look at political representatives of different and dubious backgrounds it doesn't mean you agree with everything they say. Or indeed much of what they say. You're addressing the people and culture they represent.
This false premise seems to be hugely important, particularly in the characterisation of Corbyn who it is alleged takes on the awful views of anyone and everyone he meets. But it's very one-sided as whenever anyone else does it, it's all perfectly understandable.
1
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 16:22 - Nov 16 with 2148 views
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 16:22 - Nov 16 by noggin
My comment wasn’t directed at you personally. I was just making a general point. Sorry if it came over otherwise.
Ah - no worries!
SB
“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."
1
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 16:42 - Nov 16 with 2114 views
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 15:28 - Nov 16 by Darth_Koont
As I say, I think he's clumsy and borderline offensive.
The journalist revealed he was Jewish after Livingstone had accused his paper of being like German war criminals. Not sure what difference his Jewishness makes to the analogy but of course Livingstone shouldn't have doubled down on the analogy after that. Hard to argue that this is antisemitic though.
Yes, these Muslim scholars are antisemitic, they're also misogynistic and homophobic. But that doesn't mean he's a misogynist or a homophobe. It also doesn't mean supporters of Israel are necessarily islamophobes or that the Tory support for Hungary's Orban was antisemitic in nature. Clearly when you look at political representatives of different and dubious backgrounds it doesn't mean you agree with everything they say. Or indeed much of what they say. You're addressing the people and culture they represent.
This false premise seems to be hugely important, particularly in the characterisation of Corbyn who it is alleged takes on the awful views of anyone and everyone he meets. But it's very one-sided as whenever anyone else does it, it's all perfectly understandable.
Borderline offensive?
If a Tory said half the things he has said I am sure you'd highlight them as offensive. He was suspended for 4 weeks as London Mayor after an investigation into those remarks. The tribunal certainly deemed them offensive. I find it frankly astonishing you dismiss his past comments as "clumsy and borderline offensive". It looks a bit narrative driven I am afraid.
"Clearly when you look at political representatives of different and dubious backgrounds it doesn't mean you agree with everything they say. Or indeed much of what they say. You're addressing the people and culture they represent.".
I don't know what this is supposed to mean I am afraid. Perhaps I am being slow today but perhaps you want to rephrase it?
SB
“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."
0
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 17:14 - Nov 16 with 2096 views
Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 16:42 - Nov 16 by StokieBlue
Borderline offensive?
If a Tory said half the things he has said I am sure you'd highlight them as offensive. He was suspended for 4 weeks as London Mayor after an investigation into those remarks. The tribunal certainly deemed them offensive. I find it frankly astonishing you dismiss his past comments as "clumsy and borderline offensive". It looks a bit narrative driven I am afraid.
"Clearly when you look at political representatives of different and dubious backgrounds it doesn't mean you agree with everything they say. Or indeed much of what they say. You're addressing the people and culture they represent.".
I don't know what this is supposed to mean I am afraid. Perhaps I am being slow today but perhaps you want to rephrase it?
SB
I thought it was pretty clear with the examples given before. But say, for example, you get a state visit from Trump it doesn't mean you are a misogynist, racist, climate change denier. There is though more realistically simply recognising his role as the de facto representative of the USA. Although, we should have given him the cold shoulder because even on that score he's a terrible and divisive representative.
The culture aspect is purely that a lot of these Middle East and other representatives have beliefs and values that do not fit in modern society. But that's just reality and isolation doesn't help, quite the opposite.
Re: Livingstone, I said they were offensive comments. But I don't think they were antisemitic. He didn't bring up German war criminals because he was speaking to a Jewish reporter. But pushing on with the analogy after hearing that was offensive and rude.
You can accuse me of driving a narrative if you want but I am addressing the detail. When you do that to the same scale or at least be even-handed enough to challenge the opposite narrative then you might have a claim to objectivity here. My tumbleweed avatar isn't just about the usual suspects ducking facts.
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