| This will upset some.... on 20:06 - Jul 17 with 944 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This will upset some.... on 19:11 - Jul 17 by hampstead_blue |
Well made point and thanks.
You've got my support.
I've had experience of terrorists.
I'm not in agreement with capital punishment. I do however say that throwing away the key and creating prisons were they cannot mix with others or engage with the outside world is the only other way.
These people so rarely change. I don';t care what you say about giving people a chance. The crimes terrorists commit are based on cowardice.
When they stand-up to a decent Army they get their backsides handed to them on a platter. This is why they remain hidden among us. COWARDS.
We need a prison specially built to take away their liberty. ALl of their liberty. Forget religion, TV, outside contact.
That is a deterrent. Show kids and the weaker minded who are getting tapped-up that if they get caught they are going to a very tough place.
Offer the chance to change up front. Before they get sucked into it and commit a crime. |
They tried that with Guantanamo Bay. Didn’t work. No form of detention will be a deterrent to fanatics prepared to die for their beliefs. Conditions of the mind need a more cerebral approach (literally). |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 20:28 - Jul 17 with 902 views | NewcyBlue |
| This will upset some.... on 19:11 - Jul 17 by hampstead_blue |
Well made point and thanks.
You've got my support.
I've had experience of terrorists.
I'm not in agreement with capital punishment. I do however say that throwing away the key and creating prisons were they cannot mix with others or engage with the outside world is the only other way.
These people so rarely change. I don';t care what you say about giving people a chance. The crimes terrorists commit are based on cowardice.
When they stand-up to a decent Army they get their backsides handed to them on a platter. This is why they remain hidden among us. COWARDS.
We need a prison specially built to take away their liberty. ALl of their liberty. Forget religion, TV, outside contact.
That is a deterrent. Show kids and the weaker minded who are getting tapped-up that if they get caught they are going to a very tough place.
Offer the chance to change up front. Before they get sucked into it and commit a crime. |
Will there be any room once Tommy Robinson and all his little fanboys are in there? |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 20:29 - Jul 17 with 881 views | GlasgowBlue |
| This will upset some.... on 19:42 - Jul 17 by Herbivore |
I don't think anyone will pile on you for trying to ubfrtstand, Glassers, and fair play to you for at least giving it a go. What I would say is that you are missing a lot of nuance and a lot of the similarities in how grooming works in different contexts.
I'd also throw criminal exploitation into the mix as that involves quite similar grooming to both sexual grooming and radicalising the likes of Shamima Begum. All forms of grooming and exploitation involve targeting kids who are, at best, on the fringes of society. Kids from poor backgrounds, kids who feel marginalised, kids with not much stake in society. That's partly why girls and boys in residential or foster care over over represented in the groups subject to exploitation.
They start off by making the young person feel special, they show them a different world, one where they feel valued and important. That might be through giving them gifts, making them promises, or just being nice to them (something many of them aren't used to). That's how they hook them in initially, make them feel loved andike they belong for a change.
Once they've got their claws in, that's where things change a bit. Sure there's still some degree of feeling belonging but they start to create dependency as well. That usually involves starting to distance and alienate the young person from family and friends, people that might be able to persuade them away. It sometimes involves getting them hooked on drugs or alcohol. After a while, once you've got them having sex with people or selling drugs, or moving to Syria in the more extreme case, that's when you see threats and violence used to coerce people to stay in that life. They get trapped. Often they'll convince themselves this is the only possible life for them or the life they deserve.
The mechanisms are similar in all of the cases. And it's not like Shamima was groomed to go and behead people, she was groomed to go and start a new life in what would have been sold to her as an Islamist paradise. Essentially they wanted to use her the same way grooming gangs use people over here, for a particular purpose that furthers their own ends. She was mainly being a wife and trying to be a mother.
People point out the lack of remorse and that she talks about seeing horrific things seemingly with no emotion. How do you think here adolescent brain dealt with seeing these horrors? One way is to dissociate from it, to normalise it. Make it feel like it's not a big deal. How else would you cope with seeing that stuff at 15/16? There is also an element of Stockholm syndrome; victims of abuse often talk about their ambivalence towards their abuser and that they still love them to an extent. It's pretty common and why it can be hard to get convictions at times. The bonds stay strong and take time to be undone. That is often the case whoever has groomed you and whatever life they have groomed you into. |
I’ve not bailed out on this Herbie so I’ll read your post. It’s my birthday and just after I made my post the Mrs dropped a surprise meal down our local on me. |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 20:32 - Jul 17 with 889 views | NewcyBlue |
| This will upset some.... on 18:52 - Jul 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Ok. I’m going to attempt to answer this. And I know that this is going to be like walking through a minefield and I need to treat this as sensitively as possible. I just hope that my post won’t be piled on and will be taken as an attempt to have a mature and respectful discussion on the subject.
I’m also posting as somebody who has raised two girls of 17 and a girl who is 13. I’m no expert in grooming and this is only an opinion. I’m not claiming to be an expert or that my opinion is correct.
Let’s also throw in the caveat that I’m not claiming that the victims of grooming are part of some game of top trumps or that the victims of grooming by paedophiles are in any way deserving of their abuse. And I’m not giving a free pass to the scumbags who use a position of power to groom teenage girls for sexual purposes. I’d cut their bollox off for their crimes.
Sooooooo. 15 year old girls are aware of sex. Many 15 year old girls will have had sex. They will have friends who have had sex. They will discuss sex with each other.
Sex is part of a normal loving relationship and I understand that some older men who would groom a 15 year old will have manipulated them Over a period of time into believing that they are loved.
Most 15 year old girls will be aware that Beheading and decapitating people, setting fire to people and crucifying people is not normal behaviour. They know it’s not only wrong but it’s abhorrent.
So my view is that it would be harder to groom somebody into joining IS than entering into a sexual relationship with an older man.
Again. Feel free to disagree. Ad re read my opening paras set out before I gave my opinion.
And yes, I am quite prepared to accept that my opinion may be wrong and those with expertise in the area of grooming can put me right. [Post edited 17 Jul 2020 18:56]
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I’d say that’s a fairly balanced and considered post mate.
Although I would hasten to add that religious grooming is probably a lot more powerful than person to person sexual grooming.
A community of grooming versus one person grooming.
It’s really quite scary what people can be convinced to do for “the cause”.
Rather than locking up, we need to go down to the roots of the problem. | |
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| This will upset some.... on 20:35 - Jul 17 with 878 views | 26_Paz |
| This will upset some.... on 18:52 - Jul 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Ok. I’m going to attempt to answer this. And I know that this is going to be like walking through a minefield and I need to treat this as sensitively as possible. I just hope that my post won’t be piled on and will be taken as an attempt to have a mature and respectful discussion on the subject.
I’m also posting as somebody who has raised two girls of 17 and a girl who is 13. I’m no expert in grooming and this is only an opinion. I’m not claiming to be an expert or that my opinion is correct.
Let’s also throw in the caveat that I’m not claiming that the victims of grooming are part of some game of top trumps or that the victims of grooming by paedophiles are in any way deserving of their abuse. And I’m not giving a free pass to the scumbags who use a position of power to groom teenage girls for sexual purposes. I’d cut their bollox off for their crimes.
Sooooooo. 15 year old girls are aware of sex. Many 15 year old girls will have had sex. They will have friends who have had sex. They will discuss sex with each other.
Sex is part of a normal loving relationship and I understand that some older men who would groom a 15 year old will have manipulated them Over a period of time into believing that they are loved.
Most 15 year old girls will be aware that Beheading and decapitating people, setting fire to people and crucifying people is not normal behaviour. They know it’s not only wrong but it’s abhorrent.
So my view is that it would be harder to groom somebody into joining IS than entering into a sexual relationship with an older man.
Again. Feel free to disagree. Ad re read my opening paras set out before I gave my opinion.
And yes, I am quite prepared to accept that my opinion may be wrong and those with expertise in the area of grooming can put me right. [Post edited 17 Jul 2020 18:56]
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Absolutely fantastic response mate. Articulated far better than I ever could but wholeheartedly agree. |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 20:36 - Jul 17 with 875 views | jeera |
| This will upset some.... on 20:29 - Jul 17 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ve not bailed out on this Herbie so I’ll read your post. It’s my birthday and just after I made my post the Mrs dropped a surprise meal down our local on me. |
Happy birthday, and sorry to hear the wife's dropped the main on you.
Hopefully dessert will be more successful. |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 20:37 - Jul 17 with 866 views | jeera |
| This will upset some.... on 20:35 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
Absolutely fantastic response mate. Articulated far better than I ever could but wholeheartedly agree. |
Well you've spent several pages proving that. | |
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| This will upset some.... on 20:37 - Jul 17 with 864 views | NewcyBlue |
| This will upset some.... on 20:36 - Jul 17 by jeera |
Happy birthday, and sorry to hear the wife's dropped the main on you.
Hopefully dessert will be more successful. |
Cream slice? | |
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| This will upset some.... on 20:38 - Jul 17 with 858 views | jeera |
| This will upset some.... on 20:37 - Jul 17 by NewcyBlue |
Cream slice? |
You're a wrong'un. | |
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| This will upset some.... on 20:41 - Jul 17 with 843 views | 26_Paz |
| This will upset some.... on 18:59 - Jul 17 by SpruceMoose |
Apart from the fact that grooming for sex is mainly done by one individual. Grooming for extremism is often done by a whole community. You often can't escape it because you have no one to turn to who isn't involved, and often you don't even realise that it is happening. It's just normal life. |
Interesting point mate but I don’t believe whole communities are engaged grooming to religious extremism, if they were it would be far more prevalent. It’s a few crazies on the internet getting into those who have already developed the seeds of hatred | |
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| This will upset some.... on 20:42 - Jul 17 with 841 views | NewcyBlue |
| This will upset some.... on 20:38 - Jul 17 by jeera |
You're a wrong'un. |
You’ve only just realised this?!?? | |
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| This will upset some.... on 21:28 - Jul 17 with 805 views | noggin |
| This will upset some.... on 19:45 - Jul 17 by jeera |
You were in NI?
What were you doing there? |
He was in the army. He just doesn't mention it very often. |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 21:32 - Jul 17 with 781 views | SpruceMoose |
| This will upset some.... on 20:41 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
Interesting point mate but I don’t believe whole communities are engaged grooming to religious extremism, if they were it would be far more prevalent. It’s a few crazies on the internet getting into those who have already developed the seeds of hatred |
Considering you also don't believe that Johnson is a racist I can't say I care too much about what you think Paz. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| This will upset some.... on 21:39 - Jul 17 with 769 views | 26_Paz |
| This will upset some.... on 21:32 - Jul 17 by SpruceMoose |
Considering you also don't believe that Johnson is a racist I can't say I care too much about what you think Paz. |
Fair enough mate. I’ve actually grown to quite value your opinion, maybe I’m crazy but I like to hear a completely different view to what I hear in my non online life ... | |
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| This will upset some.... on 21:42 - Jul 17 with 756 views | SpruceMoose |
| This will upset some.... on 21:39 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
Fair enough mate. I’ve actually grown to quite value your opinion, maybe I’m crazy but I like to hear a completely different view to what I hear in my non online life ... |
Sure. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| This will upset some.... on 21:44 - Jul 17 with 747 views | 26_Paz |
| This will upset some.... on 21:42 - Jul 17 by SpruceMoose |
Sure. |
Straight up, as I’ve said before I think you’re alright | |
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| This will upset some.... on 21:46 - Jul 17 with 729 views | SpruceMoose |
| This will upset some.... on 21:44 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
Straight up, as I’ve said before I think you’re alright |
Well I'm sorry Paz, but that doesn't mean all that much to me considering some of the positions you take. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| This will upset some.... on 21:49 - Jul 17 with 721 views | 26_Paz |
| This will upset some.... on 21:46 - Jul 17 by SpruceMoose |
Well I'm sorry Paz, but that doesn't mean all that much to me considering some of the positions you take. |
I wasn’t asking for your undying love. Just saying I respect you a little bit ... wow, maybe shouldn’t have had a couple of pints! 🤣 | |
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| This will upset some.... on 21:52 - Jul 17 with 704 views | SpruceMoose |
| This will upset some.... on 21:49 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
I wasn’t asking for your undying love. Just saying I respect you a little bit ... wow, maybe shouldn’t have had a couple of pints! 🤣 |
If you're being sincere than I'd ask you to channel that tiny amount of respect into thinking about if anything that's been said to you on here might possibly be correct. Change is always a possibility Paz. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| This will upset some.... on 21:54 - Jul 17 with 699 views | 26_Paz |
| This will upset some.... on 21:52 - Jul 17 by SpruceMoose |
If you're being sincere than I'd ask you to channel that tiny amount of respect into thinking about if anything that's been said to you on here might possibly be correct. Change is always a possibility Paz. |
You’re never going to change my political views but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect you as a person. My interactions with you have certainly taught me that there are other ways of looking at things and made me more likely to consider that | |
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| This will upset some.... on 21:56 - Jul 17 with 686 views | SpruceMoose |
| This will upset some.... on 21:54 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
You’re never going to change my political views but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect you as a person. My interactions with you have certainly taught me that there are other ways of looking at things and made me more likely to consider that |
Well personally I'm afraid that I could never respect anyone who looks at things the way you currently do. The best you'll get from me is a sincere wish that you grow and evolve for the better. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| This will upset some.... on 09:26 - Jul 18 with 579 views | GlasgowBlue |
| This will upset some.... on 19:42 - Jul 17 by Herbivore |
I don't think anyone will pile on you for trying to ubfrtstand, Glassers, and fair play to you for at least giving it a go. What I would say is that you are missing a lot of nuance and a lot of the similarities in how grooming works in different contexts.
I'd also throw criminal exploitation into the mix as that involves quite similar grooming to both sexual grooming and radicalising the likes of Shamima Begum. All forms of grooming and exploitation involve targeting kids who are, at best, on the fringes of society. Kids from poor backgrounds, kids who feel marginalised, kids with not much stake in society. That's partly why girls and boys in residential or foster care over over represented in the groups subject to exploitation.
They start off by making the young person feel special, they show them a different world, one where they feel valued and important. That might be through giving them gifts, making them promises, or just being nice to them (something many of them aren't used to). That's how they hook them in initially, make them feel loved andike they belong for a change.
Once they've got their claws in, that's where things change a bit. Sure there's still some degree of feeling belonging but they start to create dependency as well. That usually involves starting to distance and alienate the young person from family and friends, people that might be able to persuade them away. It sometimes involves getting them hooked on drugs or alcohol. After a while, once you've got them having sex with people or selling drugs, or moving to Syria in the more extreme case, that's when you see threats and violence used to coerce people to stay in that life. They get trapped. Often they'll convince themselves this is the only possible life for them or the life they deserve.
The mechanisms are similar in all of the cases. And it's not like Shamima was groomed to go and behead people, she was groomed to go and start a new life in what would have been sold to her as an Islamist paradise. Essentially they wanted to use her the same way grooming gangs use people over here, for a particular purpose that furthers their own ends. She was mainly being a wife and trying to be a mother.
People point out the lack of remorse and that she talks about seeing horrific things seemingly with no emotion. How do you think here adolescent brain dealt with seeing these horrors? One way is to dissociate from it, to normalise it. Make it feel like it's not a big deal. How else would you cope with seeing that stuff at 15/16? There is also an element of Stockholm syndrome; victims of abuse often talk about their ambivalence towards their abuser and that they still love them to an extent. It's pretty common and why it can be hard to get convictions at times. The bonds stay strong and take time to be undone. That is often the case whoever has groomed you and whatever life they have groomed you into. |
That’s a superb and informative answer Herbie. As I had said in my post, I have no expertise or experience of grooming and I appreciate that you have a great deal of professional experience which obviously comes across in your post.
After I had pressed post, it did occur to me that I hadn’t fully thought things through with regards to the role her religion would have played in laying years of groundwork to make her susceptible to being groomed for religious purposes. This also goes for Christian fundamentalism, extreme Judaism and any other religion which seeks to dominate every aspect of a young person’s life since the day they are born
She may well have been brought up in an Environment where Islam was the final word on everything. | |
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| This will upset some.... on 09:31 - Jul 18 with 567 views | GlasgowBlue |
| This will upset some.... on 20:36 - Jul 17 by jeera |
Happy birthday, and sorry to hear the wife's dropped the main on you.
Hopefully dessert will be more successful. |
Hastily typed on an iPhone it did read rather like that didn’t it. As for desert, What Newcy suggested was taken off the menu 😞 | |
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| This will upset some.... on 09:58 - Jul 18 with 538 views | Libero |
| This will upset some.... on 19:42 - Jul 17 by Herbivore |
I don't think anyone will pile on you for trying to ubfrtstand, Glassers, and fair play to you for at least giving it a go. What I would say is that you are missing a lot of nuance and a lot of the similarities in how grooming works in different contexts.
I'd also throw criminal exploitation into the mix as that involves quite similar grooming to both sexual grooming and radicalising the likes of Shamima Begum. All forms of grooming and exploitation involve targeting kids who are, at best, on the fringes of society. Kids from poor backgrounds, kids who feel marginalised, kids with not much stake in society. That's partly why girls and boys in residential or foster care over over represented in the groups subject to exploitation.
They start off by making the young person feel special, they show them a different world, one where they feel valued and important. That might be through giving them gifts, making them promises, or just being nice to them (something many of them aren't used to). That's how they hook them in initially, make them feel loved andike they belong for a change.
Once they've got their claws in, that's where things change a bit. Sure there's still some degree of feeling belonging but they start to create dependency as well. That usually involves starting to distance and alienate the young person from family and friends, people that might be able to persuade them away. It sometimes involves getting them hooked on drugs or alcohol. After a while, once you've got them having sex with people or selling drugs, or moving to Syria in the more extreme case, that's when you see threats and violence used to coerce people to stay in that life. They get trapped. Often they'll convince themselves this is the only possible life for them or the life they deserve.
The mechanisms are similar in all of the cases. And it's not like Shamima was groomed to go and behead people, she was groomed to go and start a new life in what would have been sold to her as an Islamist paradise. Essentially they wanted to use her the same way grooming gangs use people over here, for a particular purpose that furthers their own ends. She was mainly being a wife and trying to be a mother.
People point out the lack of remorse and that she talks about seeing horrific things seemingly with no emotion. How do you think here adolescent brain dealt with seeing these horrors? One way is to dissociate from it, to normalise it. Make it feel like it's not a big deal. How else would you cope with seeing that stuff at 15/16? There is also an element of Stockholm syndrome; victims of abuse often talk about their ambivalence towards their abuser and that they still love them to an extent. It's pretty common and why it can be hard to get convictions at times. The bonds stay strong and take time to be undone. That is often the case whoever has groomed you and whatever life they have groomed you into. |
This, with a little bit of a few other replies.
Very well put Herbs, in this and subsequent posts.
Respect your view as a Father of teenage girls Glassers, however a lot of what you say flies in the face of various Prevent/safeguarding/child sexual exploitation/county lines/FGM training I’ve received throughout my professional career.
Unfortunately it’s also allowed a few of the site deplorables to feel vindicated in their ignorant views.
Would love to go into more depth but I’m just browsing over breakfast, then off out to meet my Ipswich based friends for the first time in 5/6 months.
Didn’t want it to look like I was ignoring your post, or the thread. [Post edited 18 Jul 2020 10:07]
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| This will upset some.... on 10:02 - Jul 18 with 522 views | Libero |
| This will upset some.... on 19:24 - Jul 17 by jeera |
Honestly when I saw Libs post on this subject earlier I thought maybe this guy needs reporting to the authorities.
This isn't normal. |
Just for clarity, it was Spruce who mentioned a post that the hampster had made that concerned him.
I responded discussing methods of reporting concern to relevant authorities and the importance of doing so, also offered a little bit of my own personal experience of dealing with concerning behaviours. [Post edited 18 Jul 2020 10:14]
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