| Still not supported by the DUP on 14:17 - Oct 17 with 1159 views | Guthrum |
| Still not supported by the DUP on 14:03 - Oct 17 by Darth_Koont |
No, I think it will make supporting Scottish trade and finding much-needed foreign investment more difficult as it'll be potentially easier to set up in Northern Ireland with a foot in both the UK and the EU.
I'd have no qualms about Northern Ireland getting a good deal but it's a kick in the teeth for Scotland as the country most in favour of remaining aligned with Europe on at least customs levels if not within the single market itself. |
That all depends how the NI deal actually works out. If there is inter-community trouble or excessive red tape, it might work the other way. |  |
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| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:20 - Oct 17 with 1147 views | gordon |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:15 - Oct 17 by NotSure |
Exactly ...
Vote goes through: Boris Wins
Vote is blocked: Boris Wins
Vote is blocked in high court on Friday: Boris wins massively.
It's certainly not looking good for Labour. |
If the deal passes conditional on a second referendum to confirm it, then Boris loses big time, in my opinion. If Corbyn threw everything behind getting this outcome, they could probably just about do it, or come very, very close, but it doesn't look like he's going to do it. |  | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:21 - Oct 17 with 1138 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:09 - Oct 17 by Swansea_Blue |
This is the most logical take I've seen on this ongoing clusterf*ck. No doubt this also allows him to play the victim card - 'we would have got Brexit done if it wasn't for those pesky kids', etc.
And with that, I'm out for the rest of the day. |
(cough)
NI only backstop by Darth_Koont 15 Oct 2019 19:51You'd think so. But then again if the maneuvering around the blame game continues then perhaps this is Boris hanging the DUP out to dry and blaming them for the lack of a deal.
But, yes, it would be a massive about face by the DUP if they're now going along with it. Not to mention the vast majority of Conservatives who backed May when she said it was totally unacceptable.
Admittedly I was only guessing as very little makes any real sense anymore. |  |
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| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:23 - Oct 17 with 1126 views | NotSure |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:20 - Oct 17 by gordon |
If the deal passes conditional on a second referendum to confirm it, then Boris loses big time, in my opinion. If Corbyn threw everything behind getting this outcome, they could probably just about do it, or come very, very close, but it doesn't look like he's going to do it. |
I forgot about the possible amendments on Saturday.
But a new referendum is still a massive win. It's still "stopping the will of the people" and would probably guarantee 35-40% at the next general election. |  | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:24 - Oct 17 with 1124 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:12 - Oct 17 by NotSure |
But the easy answer to this question is that you must implement the result of the vote first.
Then people can change their minds in the next EU referendum.
Just like in general elections. |
What does implementing the result look like? May's deal? Johnson's deal? No deal? Some other deal? No concrete, defined version of leave has anything close to universal support and none look anything like what was being sold in 2016. It's perfectly reasonable to ask whether people still want to leave - given how much upheaval it will cause - now we know what leaving might actually look like. |  |
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| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:26 - Oct 17 with 1109 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:23 - Oct 17 by NotSure |
I forgot about the possible amendments on Saturday.
But a new referendum is still a massive win. It's still "stopping the will of the people" and would probably guarantee 35-40% at the next general election. |
Doubtful, if we have a second referendum and remain wins then what is Johnson's pitch at the GE that follows? He can't pitch to leave immediately after remain wins a referendum. | |
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| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:30 - Oct 17 with 1091 views | NotSure |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:26 - Oct 17 by Herbivore |
Doubtful, if we have a second referendum and remain wins then what is Johnson's pitch at the GE that follows? He can't pitch to leave immediately after remain wins a referendum. |
The pitch would probably be a 3rd referendum (best of three).
A second referendum with remain winning solves nothing and would lead to a lot of people voting Tory. | | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:33 - Oct 17 with 1074 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:21 - Oct 17 by Darth_Koont |
(cough)
NI only backstop by Darth_Koont 15 Oct 2019 19:51You'd think so. But then again if the maneuvering around the blame game continues then perhaps this is Boris hanging the DUP out to dry and blaming them for the lack of a deal.
But, yes, it would be a massive about face by the DUP if they're now going along with it. Not to mention the vast majority of Conservatives who backed May when she said it was totally unacceptable.
Admittedly I was only guessing as very little makes any real sense anymore. |
Well it did sound logical half an hour ago! Junker ruling out another extension puts the cat amongst the pigeons though, if true. |  |
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| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:33 - Oct 17 with 1071 views | NotSure |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:24 - Oct 17 by Herbivore |
What does implementing the result look like? May's deal? Johnson's deal? No deal? Some other deal? No concrete, defined version of leave has anything close to universal support and none look anything like what was being sold in 2016. It's perfectly reasonable to ask whether people still want to leave - given how much upheaval it will cause - now we know what leaving might actually look like. |
Implementing the result means leaving the institution of the EU.
And we always find out surprising things after voting in a new government (Lib Dems and Student Fees for example). But we usually have to wait 5 years before we get another say. | | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:42 - Oct 17 with 1059 views | Half_Idiot |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:30 - Oct 17 by NotSure |
The pitch would probably be a 3rd referendum (best of three).
A second referendum with remain winning solves nothing and would lead to a lot of people voting Tory. |
Not sure how remain winning a second referendum would result in people voting for the Tories in a GE. If a second referendum results in remain winning then surely those that voted to remain would most likely vote for a party that supported the remain campaign not the Tories?
Also, the result of a second referendum would hold more weight than the first as it will most likely be based more on fact than fiction. I can't see what a third referendum would achieve regardless of the outcome of a second referendum. |  | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:45 - Oct 17 with 1044 views | Guthrum |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:12 - Oct 17 by NotSure |
But the easy answer to this question is that you must implement the result of the vote first.
Then people can change their minds in the next EU referendum.
Just like in general elections. |
This was not like a General Election, which votes in a government for the country rather than asking a specific question.
It has so far proved impossible to implement the decision. If it is simply not practicable, then it cannot be done and is not sensible to try.
If we decided to declare war on China over the trouble in Hong Kong, but it soon became obvious we would lose horribly and suffer long term damage, ought the government to push ahead regardless? Or would it be more logical to reconsider? | |
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| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:47 - Oct 17 with 1037 views | crunchie1978 |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:06 - Oct 17 by Darth_Koont |
Let's be honest though, Boris is pitching us the cancer rather than the cure. |
that is the problem with this whole debate....something that is one mans cancer is another mans cure. | | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:47 - Oct 17 with 1037 views | BlueNomad |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:42 - Oct 17 by Half_Idiot |
Not sure how remain winning a second referendum would result in people voting for the Tories in a GE. If a second referendum results in remain winning then surely those that voted to remain would most likely vote for a party that supported the remain campaign not the Tories?
Also, the result of a second referendum would hold more weight than the first as it will most likely be based more on fact than fiction. I can't see what a third referendum would achieve regardless of the outcome of a second referendum. |
"A 52%-48% result would be unfinished business" - Nigel Farage 2016 |  | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:47 - Oct 17 with 1038 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:33 - Oct 17 by Swansea_Blue |
Well it did sound logical half an hour ago! Junker ruling out another extension puts the cat amongst the pigeons though, if true. |
They've said that repeatedly though. And they know there's a real likelihood that the deal won't pass which necessitates by law that the British not the EU must ask for an extension. | |
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| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:48 - Oct 17 with 1031 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:30 - Oct 17 by NotSure |
The pitch would probably be a 3rd referendum (best of three).
A second referendum with remain winning solves nothing and would lead to a lot of people voting Tory. |
I don't think so. | |
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| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:50 - Oct 17 with 1022 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:33 - Oct 17 by NotSure |
Implementing the result means leaving the institution of the EU.
And we always find out surprising things after voting in a new government (Lib Dems and Student Fees for example). But we usually have to wait 5 years before we get another say. |
We've had two GEs in the past 4 years with another one imminent, that somewhat weakens your argument.
What do you mean by your first sentence? Leaving the EU can, as we've seen, mean many different things. | |
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| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:52 - Oct 17 with 1006 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:47 - Oct 17 by Darth_Koont |
They've said that repeatedly though. And they know there's a real likelihood that the deal won't pass which necessitates by law that the British not the EU must ask for an extension. |
Yeah, I think there’s been some premature reaction to Junker’s comments. We don’t know for sure but I suspect extension is still very much on the table, especially as there are doubts remaining over legality of a vote on the WA and whether there’s sufficient time by end of the month. | |
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| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:54 - Oct 17 with 999 views | crunchie1978 |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:09 - Oct 17 by BlueNomad |
Could it just be that they are voting against it for perfectly good reasons? Have you really thought about the implications of what might happen? And please don't come back with that "we won, you lost" rubbish. |
No sorry i don"t think they are voting for it for the right reasons.
The problem is they are to entrenched in their party politics or political views....i don"t think they care at all about the man on the street (sorry or woman). | | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:55 - Oct 17 with 996 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:54 - Oct 17 by crunchie1978 |
No sorry i don"t think they are voting for it for the right reasons.
The problem is they are to entrenched in their party politics or political views....i don"t think they care at all about the man on the street (sorry or woman). |
What are you basing that on? | |
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| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:56 - Oct 17 with 986 views | BlueNomad |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:54 - Oct 17 by crunchie1978 |
No sorry i don"t think they are voting for it for the right reasons.
The problem is they are to entrenched in their party politics or political views....i don"t think they care at all about the man on the street (sorry or woman). |
Well we know the ERG-wing of the Tory Party are for the man and woman on the street - so they can fleece them and keep their, and their backers', money off-shore. NEVER think that Johnson and his cronies are standing up for you (unless you are one of those backers). | | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:59 - Oct 17 with 966 views | crunchie1978 |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:55 - Oct 17 by Herbivore |
What are you basing that on? |
Watching the house of commons live on sky!  | | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 15:01 - Oct 17 with 961 views | crunchie1978 |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:56 - Oct 17 by BlueNomad |
Well we know the ERG-wing of the Tory Party are for the man and woman on the street - so they can fleece them and keep their, and their backers', money off-shore. NEVER think that Johnson and his cronies are standing up for you (unless you are one of those backers). |
i dont think anyone that sits in that chamber stands up for me. | | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 15:01 - Oct 17 with 961 views | Half_Idiot |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:47 - Oct 17 by BlueNomad |
"A 52%-48% result would be unfinished business" - Nigel Farage 2016 |
In his own words there should be a second referendum | | | |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 15:07 - Oct 17 with 935 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit deal is DONE! on 14:59 - Oct 17 by crunchie1978 |
Watching the house of commons live on sky! |
Has it not occurred to you that this just isn't a very good deal and is further away from a deal they would accept than May's deal was? | |
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| Still not supported by the DUP on 15:08 - Oct 17 with 933 views | GeoffSentence |
| Still not supported by the DUP on 11:58 - Oct 17 by Swansea_Blue |
Boris needs to find 28 votes from somewhere (even assuming all Tories and all DUP vote with him, which is unlikely).
There may be a few promises of top jobs, constituency investment, the odd bung here, etc., going on. |
This is the maths according to the Telegraph, it is a premium article so I won't post the link, but I have screen grabbed this image (copyright The Daily Telegraph 2019 blah blah blah)
The 'Spartans' in this case are Tory ERG MPs who never voted for May's deal. |  |
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