| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,†said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: 10:44 - May 29 with 5142 views | Keno |
“We are just a few off.”
Well thats encouraging!!
I hope anyone us inflicted with a Tory MP have contacted him/her/it to express our dissatisfaction and suggest the MP doesnt the right thing and submit their letter
FOPRB |  |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 15:46 - May 29 with 1769 views | XYZ |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 15:31 - May 29 by HARRY10 |
A caolotion would merely spread the guilt.
The idea that the PR buffoonert is some kinf of silver bullett is absilute nonsense.
Any coalition alwayus sees a dominant party (see 2010) and has at is formation not the 'will of the people', but the will of a half cozen 'grey beards' carving up things in a back room.
Plocoes that were voted for a dumped with no 'peoples will' involved.
The fault lies solely with voters. What is being called for with PR is to ignore that and believe as in the USS taht simply giving body armout to choildren to protect them is the solution. make the UK a little less democratic, taht will do,
As to the idea that brexit was not binary is absurd, the vote was as what happened after. And despite all the waffle about soft, hard, skinny, light .... brexot the harsh reality is what was a;always going to be the case. The UK is out. Out of the CU and SM, and is having to accept being treated like other 3rd countries.
And therein lies the danger of peddling the PR myth, that it will deliver what it can't and all will be well.
FTTP throws up all manner of anomalies, but it does not rob the electorate by lying about what it is.
Now why not take a look around you, and recognise just how many mobbers voted for the corrupt bunch of crooks, and how little voters are doing about it. |
If FPTP was so good then why is it only used by 2 or 3 countries worldwide?
A failed system long ago rejected by countries less averse to making changes to improve lives.
Even the Aussie alternative vote system is demonstrably better and more democratic. |  | | |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:36 - May 29 with 1711 views | factual_blue |
boris sees the 40s as Our Finest Hour. |  |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:40 - May 29 with 1709 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 11:16 - May 29 by Ryorry |
Agree, though it's very hard to stomach while he & his cronies carry on dismantling the UK brick by brick - you just wonder how many years it's going to take to restore things like the ministerial code as it was, repeal horrendous new legislation like removal of the right to protest etc etc. |
Correct. However, without a change in the party of Government there will be no desire to change any of that at all. This party is taking so long to remove Johnson because they support him. This is on the Tories not just on Johnson. |  |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:41 - May 29 with 1698 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:40 - May 29 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Correct. However, without a change in the party of Government there will be no desire to change any of that at all. This party is taking so long to remove Johnson because they support him. This is on the Tories not just on Johnson. |
Yup - they are almost all complicit and that mustn’t be forgotten when the axe finally falls on Boris. | | | |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:42 - May 29 with 1697 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 11:37 - May 29 by Churchman |
Too late. Whether he stays, goes, is replaced by a Mysteron or the greatest as yet unknown politician in history, the tories are done. Cooked. Finished. There are places like where I live where a pile of dog mess with a blue rosette would get elected, but I’ll be amazed if they get 150 seats.
Maybe in 15, 20 years time if they change everything, find some decency and understanding of what the real world looks like and what a representative of a constituency should be there to do, they might be worthy of consideration. Until then, it’ll be back to the comfort of the opposition benches they enjoyed so lavishly late 90s to 2010. |
How long did the legacy of hatred for Thatcher lead to the Conservatives being unelectable? I am not even convinced they won't win the next election at the moment! | |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:45 - May 29 with 1692 views | XYZ |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:40 - May 29 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Correct. However, without a change in the party of Government there will be no desire to change any of that at all. This party is taking so long to remove Johnson because they support him. This is on the Tories not just on Johnson. |
Absolutely. Johnson has no principle beyond maximum benefit for no.1.
The policies being pushed through are those of the (mainly us-based far right) neo-cons backing the Tufton St lobbying "charities".
Johnson is no more (or less) than a (very) useful idiot frontman. That's all that was required to reverse takeover the UK. | | | |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:56 - May 29 with 1679 views | GlasgowBlue |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:42 - May 29 by Nthsuffolkblue |
How long did the legacy of hatred for Thatcher lead to the Conservatives being unelectable? I am not even convinced they won't win the next election at the moment! |
John Major won an election two years after Thatcher was dismissed by the Tory MP’s..
The first former PM invited to Downing Street by Tony Blair was Thatcher.
The Tories were between 1997 and 2010 because of having a succession of poor leaders and being up against a very good PM in Tony Blair.
The legacy of Thatcher had nothing to do with their period in opposition. |  |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:59 - May 29 with 1670 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:56 - May 29 by GlasgowBlue |
John Major won an election two years after Thatcher was dismissed by the Tory MP’s..
The first former PM invited to Downing Street by Tony Blair was Thatcher.
The Tories were between 1997 and 2010 because of having a succession of poor leaders and being up against a very good PM in Tony Blair.
The legacy of Thatcher had nothing to do with their period in opposition. |
Which is my point.
Johnson goes and I can easily see this party being re-elected. They will lay all the blame on him for everything that the press has whipped up a frenzy over. | |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 17:06 - May 29 with 1651 views | GlasgowBlue |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 16:59 - May 29 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Which is my point.
Johnson goes and I can easily see this party being re-elected. They will lay all the blame on him for everything that the press has whipped up a frenzy over. |
Ah git it.
As you said earlier, every MP that has been prepared to support him despite knowing he is a liar and a fraud are complicit in the current shambles. They should be held to account long after Johnson is gone. | |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 07:53 - May 30 with 1546 views | ElephantintheRoom |
I think there are slightly more than 40 or 50 Tory MPs.
A vote of confidence is pointless at present with only Mr Charisma Hunt as a viable untainted leader (if we forget what he did to the NHS). Like Hitler with Ernst Röhm, Johnson removed his only leadership rival, Free Money Sunak when he saw stormy waters ahead. | |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 08:15 - May 30 with 1528 views | Keno |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 07:53 - May 30 by ElephantintheRoom |
I think there are slightly more than 40 or 50 Tory MPs.
A vote of confidence is pointless at present with only Mr Charisma Hunt as a viable untainted leader (if we forget what he did to the NHS). Like Hitler with Ernst Röhm, Johnson removed his only leadership rival, Free Money Sunak when he saw stormy waters ahead. |
Cometh the hour cometh the vile vicious nasty would be dominatirix bigoted self serving tory, you watch Priti Patel become PM | |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 09:01 - May 30 with 1506 views | Pinewoodblue |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 08:15 - May 30 by Keno |
Cometh the hour cometh the vile vicious nasty would be dominatirix bigoted self serving tory, you watch Priti Patel become PM |
First step is in three weeks time with the By Election in Wakefield.
Really needs to be a resounding Labour victory. The Labour candidate is a local NHS worker, preferred by the constituency party to a Unionist candidate. Also the Yorkshire Party candidate is a former member of the Conservative party who resigned in 2019 as a protest against Johnson so could split the Conservative vote.
A test for Starmer as well as Johnson. Failure could make it awkward for him. Labour are at a crossroads, they need to move to the right to secure the middle ground, if they can’t win this then activists will want to move further to the left. Labour is as much a divided party as the Tories. |  |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 10:06 - May 30 with 1455 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 13:11 - May 29 by HARRY10 |
PR would be an absolute disaster - if only that it would ensure Johnson was not voted out as an MP, or not party leader.
Voters would be going to the polls 'blind' not knowing who their MP would be, even were they to win. Also not knowing what policies they were voting for either. Partys simply insert stuff they are happy to trade away after the election (see 2107)
It removes local accountability, and to a degree a huge chunk of democracy. Decisions made by governments are almost always binary for/against. Or are we to bring back hanging, but only by string, and only for 10 secs and more as each coalition partner has their input ?
As things stand the FPTP is the greatest threat to the Tories. s with the almost certainty of tactical voting, over 100 Tory MPs are now waking up to the reality of Johnsons lying anf incompetence. Despite the 'news' from Youguv, it has been known for months that the polls point to a Tory loss of over 100 seats. That there has been no action suggests many Tories thought it was a blip, and 'normal service would soon be resumed'.
It will be interesting to see, in the upcoming Devon by election, how far the Tory vote shrinks, and whether it has gone to the LD or simply stayed at home. If it is the former then it suggests Tory voters won't Johnson out
And is likely to be something that will grow, the longer he stays, given his utter incompetence
However, the real question is why so many need to believe what are obvious lies (see US guns). Brexut was never an informed debate. It was just lie after lie (now being seen) and a shutting down of any wish to hear the truth. |
Have to disagree with you on the PR front Harry, if it was so rubbish, how come most mature democracies around the world use it? |  |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 11:31 - May 30 with 1411 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 13:11 - May 29 by HARRY10 |
PR would be an absolute disaster - if only that it would ensure Johnson was not voted out as an MP, or not party leader.
Voters would be going to the polls 'blind' not knowing who their MP would be, even were they to win. Also not knowing what policies they were voting for either. Partys simply insert stuff they are happy to trade away after the election (see 2107)
It removes local accountability, and to a degree a huge chunk of democracy. Decisions made by governments are almost always binary for/against. Or are we to bring back hanging, but only by string, and only for 10 secs and more as each coalition partner has their input ?
As things stand the FPTP is the greatest threat to the Tories. s with the almost certainty of tactical voting, over 100 Tory MPs are now waking up to the reality of Johnsons lying anf incompetence. Despite the 'news' from Youguv, it has been known for months that the polls point to a Tory loss of over 100 seats. That there has been no action suggests many Tories thought it was a blip, and 'normal service would soon be resumed'.
It will be interesting to see, in the upcoming Devon by election, how far the Tory vote shrinks, and whether it has gone to the LD or simply stayed at home. If it is the former then it suggests Tory voters won't Johnson out
And is likely to be something that will grow, the longer he stays, given his utter incompetence
However, the real question is why so many need to believe what are obvious lies (see US guns). Brexut was never an informed debate. It was just lie after lie (now being seen) and a shutting down of any wish to hear the truth. |
You might want to take a look at the system used for the Scottish Parliament, where there are constituency MSPs plus a list system for balancing out the final proportions. The balancing MSPs can also act as cover for constituency matters for Ministers. It's a good system, and significantly fairer than FPTP.
A thumping majority, allowing the kind of changes we have seen to the checks and balances of our "unwritten Constitution", based on a 43.6% popular vote is the biggest indictment of FPTP we have ever seen.
There is a basic democratic point about no votes should be wasted votes, in addition to the "fair and representative outcome" point.
Johnson has changed the remit of the Electoral Commission, too, giving him direct control of how it carries out its work. So an unfair system just became a whole lot more crooked. | | | |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 12:25 - May 30 with 1359 views | HARRY10 |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 15:46 - May 29 by XYZ |
If FPTP was so good then why is it only used by 2 or 3 countries worldwide?
A failed system long ago rejected by countries less averse to making changes to improve lives.
Even the Aussie alternative vote system is demonstrably better and more democratic. |
It is as if you people feel it is important to argue against the nonsense you are peddling, rather than have me do it.
Just because the non Tory vote is more than 50%, it does not mean it is in agreement. Removing local accountability, and handing power to a half a dozen, or so does not solve anything. Taong ot out of the hanfs of the masses and concentrated in a few hands is never the answer.
The real danger with the PR peddlers can be seen as with the 2019 election. Rather than actually look at the questions, voters closed their ears and voted for a known liar.....because he was 'funny', was posh, he was unconventional....etc
Whereas a cursory glance would have shown this was no more than a carefully constructed image to hide what is basically a total incompetent.
As evidenced by posts on here there is no really thought (or actually understanding) of what PR involves, beyond some childlike faith. "There, there, PR will make it all better"
No explanation of how, or even which one of the multitude on offer would improve things. Voter engagement is no better because there is PR. It comes from within society, from expectation and engagement. Maybe something seen in Scandinavian countries.
But peddling the myth that an unknown is going to improve things is a dangerous path to go down, one that has the thought that once voters realise they have been conned, the necessary need of more engagement will slip even further.
Odd that we should be looking to concentrating power in even fewer hands is being offered as a solution. | | | |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 12:29 - May 30 with 1357 views | itfcjoe |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 09:01 - May 30 by Pinewoodblue |
First step is in three weeks time with the By Election in Wakefield.
Really needs to be a resounding Labour victory. The Labour candidate is a local NHS worker, preferred by the constituency party to a Unionist candidate. Also the Yorkshire Party candidate is a former member of the Conservative party who resigned in 2019 as a protest against Johnson so could split the Conservative vote.
A test for Starmer as well as Johnson. Failure could make it awkward for him. Labour are at a crossroads, they need to move to the right to secure the middle ground, if they can’t win this then activists will want to move further to the left. Labour is as much a divided party as the Tories. |
Only 3k to overturn, surely nailed on Labour victory.
LDs are expecting to take the Somerset seat vacated by Parrish where Tories have a 25k majority - lose those 2 and BJ surely toast |  |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 19:10 - May 30 with 1247 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 12:25 - May 30 by HARRY10 |
It is as if you people feel it is important to argue against the nonsense you are peddling, rather than have me do it.
Just because the non Tory vote is more than 50%, it does not mean it is in agreement. Removing local accountability, and handing power to a half a dozen, or so does not solve anything. Taong ot out of the hanfs of the masses and concentrated in a few hands is never the answer.
The real danger with the PR peddlers can be seen as with the 2019 election. Rather than actually look at the questions, voters closed their ears and voted for a known liar.....because he was 'funny', was posh, he was unconventional....etc
Whereas a cursory glance would have shown this was no more than a carefully constructed image to hide what is basically a total incompetent.
As evidenced by posts on here there is no really thought (or actually understanding) of what PR involves, beyond some childlike faith. "There, there, PR will make it all better"
No explanation of how, or even which one of the multitude on offer would improve things. Voter engagement is no better because there is PR. It comes from within society, from expectation and engagement. Maybe something seen in Scandinavian countries.
But peddling the myth that an unknown is going to improve things is a dangerous path to go down, one that has the thought that once voters realise they have been conned, the necessary need of more engagement will slip even further.
Odd that we should be looking to concentrating power in even fewer hands is being offered as a solution. |
"Concentrating power in fewer hands" I take as a criticism of the party list system. If you are going to continue with a down on the concept of PR it is as encumbant on you to offer a critique of all the flavours as it is on anyone else to pick one as "the answer" and defend it.
Personally I would favour almost any PR system tbh as long as it is accompanied by compulsory voting - if voters will not voluntary engage they must be forced to do so.
The FPTP 2019 election delivered a thumping majority for the Tories and put the likes of Dorries, Patel, Rees-Mogg, as well as Johnson, in positions of power well beyond their capability - what about any PR system would make that situation any worse? |  |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 19:25 - May 30 with 1233 views | Ryorry |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 19:10 - May 30 by You_Bloo_Right |
"Concentrating power in fewer hands" I take as a criticism of the party list system. If you are going to continue with a down on the concept of PR it is as encumbant on you to offer a critique of all the flavours as it is on anyone else to pick one as "the answer" and defend it.
Personally I would favour almost any PR system tbh as long as it is accompanied by compulsory voting - if voters will not voluntary engage they must be forced to do so.
The FPTP 2019 election delivered a thumping majority for the Tories and put the likes of Dorries, Patel, Rees-Mogg, as well as Johnson, in positions of power well beyond their capability - what about any PR system would make that situation any worse? |
How could compulsory voting ever become a thing when this wretched govt. are also hell-bent on Photo ID being required for ordinary people to vote?
"The Elections Act 2022 ... introduce the requirement to show photo ID at UK Parliamentary elections, police and crime commissioner elections and at local elections in England. This briefing looks at the background to voter ID in the UK.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9187/ |  |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 19:57 - May 30 with 1203 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 19:25 - May 30 by Ryorry |
How could compulsory voting ever become a thing when this wretched govt. are also hell-bent on Photo ID being required for ordinary people to vote?
"The Elections Act 2022 ... introduce the requirement to show photo ID at UK Parliamentary elections, police and crime commissioner elections and at local elections in England. This briefing looks at the background to voter ID in the UK.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9187/ |
Rather like many anti-oppressed minorities/poor policies of this Government, it is to solve a problem that only really exists in the media-generated fears of Tory supporters. | |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 21:19 - May 30 with 1162 views | peterleeblue |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 19:10 - May 30 by You_Bloo_Right |
"Concentrating power in fewer hands" I take as a criticism of the party list system. If you are going to continue with a down on the concept of PR it is as encumbant on you to offer a critique of all the flavours as it is on anyone else to pick one as "the answer" and defend it.
Personally I would favour almost any PR system tbh as long as it is accompanied by compulsory voting - if voters will not voluntary engage they must be forced to do so.
The FPTP 2019 election delivered a thumping majority for the Tories and put the likes of Dorries, Patel, Rees-Mogg, as well as Johnson, in positions of power well beyond their capability - what about any PR system would make that situation any worse? |
You spelt "The 2019 2nd Brexit referendum " incorrectly??!!
The FPTP 2019 election delivered a thumping majority for the Tories and put the likes of Dorries, Patel, Rees-Mogg, as well as Johnson, in positions of power well beyond their capability - what about any PR system would make that situation any worse? |  | | |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 21:27 - May 30 with 1152 views | Dubtractor |
When your government is so laughable, that even Aldi is taking the piss out of them.
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 21:33 - May 30 with 1138 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 21:27 - May 30 by Dubtractor |
When your government is so laughable, that even Aldi is taking the piss out of them.
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And fecking up the joke. | |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 21:39 - May 30 with 1129 views | Dubtractor |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 21:33 - May 30 by You_Bloo_Right |
And fecking up the joke. |
Ha. Imagine trying to digest a half kilo burger! | |
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| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 09:19 - May 31 with 1051 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| "“I reckon we are in the 40s,” said one rebel Tory MP. Another added: on 12:25 - May 30 by HARRY10 |
It is as if you people feel it is important to argue against the nonsense you are peddling, rather than have me do it.
Just because the non Tory vote is more than 50%, it does not mean it is in agreement. Removing local accountability, and handing power to a half a dozen, or so does not solve anything. Taong ot out of the hanfs of the masses and concentrated in a few hands is never the answer.
The real danger with the PR peddlers can be seen as with the 2019 election. Rather than actually look at the questions, voters closed their ears and voted for a known liar.....because he was 'funny', was posh, he was unconventional....etc
Whereas a cursory glance would have shown this was no more than a carefully constructed image to hide what is basically a total incompetent.
As evidenced by posts on here there is no really thought (or actually understanding) of what PR involves, beyond some childlike faith. "There, there, PR will make it all better"
No explanation of how, or even which one of the multitude on offer would improve things. Voter engagement is no better because there is PR. It comes from within society, from expectation and engagement. Maybe something seen in Scandinavian countries.
But peddling the myth that an unknown is going to improve things is a dangerous path to go down, one that has the thought that once voters realise they have been conned, the necessary need of more engagement will slip even further.
Odd that we should be looking to concentrating power in even fewer hands is being offered as a solution. |
Nothing you have said there is an argument against PR - I personally understand PR very well, having been a member of the ERS for years. I know the advantages and disadvantages, and the various outcomes that could arise - the issue is not with the PR systems in existence being able to solve voter engagement problems, it's rather that voter engagement under FPTP is so low that it merely encourages the absolutists, such as yourself, from not trying to improve it, because there is no point under FPTP.
For example, I could be the most engaged voter in the world, and I want to vote Labour, and I try and encourage lots of other people to vote Labour - but I live in a super-safe Tory seat - so what's the point? Our votes are lost. Under PR in most cases, whilst those votes might not win that seat to generate a local Labour representative, they will be taken into account nationally and so will count for something, rather than absolutely nothing.
There were many people against the tradional 'block vote' system in the 70s and 80s, which said that even if only 10% of a unionised site voted for a strike, then 100% of the unionised members on that site were said to have voted for the strike - when I pointed out that was just like FPTP, they went into all sorts of logical contortions (to show they were different things, where in principle they are exactly the same...
If someone felt their vote was going to be counted, regardless of what happened locally, more people would definitely vote...
And don't even get me started on gerrymandering in FPTP systems..... | |
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