| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 08:30 - Oct 17 with 3184 views | StokieBlue |
You cited this study before which I believe has a number of issues:
- why use a percentage increase when what is important is the absolute number of cases. By the method used 100,000 cases could seem small if the membership increase was big enough.
- the above is doubly important given the membership has increased but the number of MPs hasn't thus from their perspective the number of actual cases has certainly increased. This is what they are citing.
- what are the demographics of the sample?
Furthermore why is that study relevent to this specific thread? The public perception of the issue is irrelevant to the circumstances of an individual MP. It looks like obfuscation: there isn't an issue because of this study so it must be the MP who has the issue.
I think this is the wrong way to look at it.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 08:32 - Oct 17 with 3180 views | StokieBlue |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 07:45 - Oct 17 by BrixtonBlue |
My first thought was that it's really sad, what a shame.
My second thought was, why is she doing it now? The anti-semitism issue has been around for ages.
Some would like these things to be black and white to suit their agenda. They rarely are. |
You seem to want to know why everything is being done now, perhaps things just got too bad? Your insinuation is that her motives have nothing to do with her abuse and are for another reason.
You should either lay out your suspicions or accept her reasoning.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 08:43 - Oct 17 with 3172 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 08:30 - Oct 17 by StokieBlue |
You cited this study before which I believe has a number of issues:
- why use a percentage increase when what is important is the absolute number of cases. By the method used 100,000 cases could seem small if the membership increase was big enough.
- the above is doubly important given the membership has increased but the number of MPs hasn't thus from their perspective the number of actual cases has certainly increased. This is what they are citing.
- what are the demographics of the sample?
Furthermore why is that study relevent to this specific thread? The public perception of the issue is irrelevant to the circumstances of an individual MP. It looks like obfuscation: there isn't an issue because of this study so it must be the MP who has the issue.
I think this is the wrong way to look at it.
SB |
I responded to Bloom's assertion of the Labour Party being antisemitic. The study is crucial to understanding why people feel comfortable making that assertion and why it's difficult for people to defend themselves against accusations as they fit that perception.
You're being a bit cheeky there.Yes, the absolute number of cases is important and no, it's nothing like 100,000. That's the very point being made in the study.
It was a Survation poll of 1,009 people. Read all about in the first few pages of this - including the qualitative responses which were pretty illuminating.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/supadu-imgix/plutopress-uk/pdfs/look-inside/LI-97817868 |  |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 08:46 - Oct 17 with 3164 views | ZedRodgers |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 07:20 - Oct 17 by StokieBlue |
Can you accept that if someone who is a Labour MP and has been a member for 55 years feels the need to leave there is an issue somewhere?
If not then I'd like to see some justification for her motives on both the statement and leaving the institution that has been her life.
SB |
She's right to leave if she cannot countenance the leader of the Labour Party becoming Prime Minister. It's an untenable stance.
The timing is remarkable though and clearly relates to the incoming trigger ballot. Her CLP have legitimate concerns and would likely prefer a different person to represent them, vindicated by her admission last night of not wanting Labour to win a general election. People will rightly point to her unwavering support of a previous Labour leader who committed some of the worst atrocities a statesman is capable of.
There are verifiable falsehoods in her resignation letter. Anybody who thinks Jeremy Corbyn is a more dangerous prospect than Boris Johnson is utterly delusional and at odds with the majority of not only the Labour party membership, but the entire 'left'. |  |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 08:48 - Oct 17 with 3149 views | StokieBlue |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 08:43 - Oct 17 by Darth_Koont |
I responded to Bloom's assertion of the Labour Party being antisemitic. The study is crucial to understanding why people feel comfortable making that assertion and why it's difficult for people to defend themselves against accusations as they fit that perception.
You're being a bit cheeky there.Yes, the absolute number of cases is important and no, it's nothing like 100,000. That's the very point being made in the study.
It was a Survation poll of 1,009 people. Read all about in the first few pages of this - including the qualitative responses which were pretty illuminating.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/supadu-imgix/plutopress-uk/pdfs/look-inside/LI-97817868 |
I think you misunderstood my point, it's certainly not cheeky.
If you increase one input (the members) but not another (the MPs) then the percentage will always look better than the reality.
If you maintain the same number of MP but cases increase with membership it's more cases per MP and perhaps this is why do many Labour MPs feel the way they do? What matters for them is the absolute increase in events, not the statistical percentage.
I'll try and read the link later.
SB [Post edited 17 Oct 2019 8:57]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 08:56 - Oct 17 with 3125 views | StokieBlue |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 08:46 - Oct 17 by ZedRodgers |
She's right to leave if she cannot countenance the leader of the Labour Party becoming Prime Minister. It's an untenable stance.
The timing is remarkable though and clearly relates to the incoming trigger ballot. Her CLP have legitimate concerns and would likely prefer a different person to represent them, vindicated by her admission last night of not wanting Labour to win a general election. People will rightly point to her unwavering support of a previous Labour leader who committed some of the worst atrocities a statesman is capable of.
There are verifiable falsehoods in her resignation letter. Anybody who thinks Jeremy Corbyn is a more dangerous prospect than Boris Johnson is utterly delusional and at odds with the majority of not only the Labour party membership, but the entire 'left'. |
Welcome back Zed, I trust all is well.
You know far more about the inner workings of seat than I so I'll assume those are all legitimate political points.
I would point out that your whole post was political points though, no mention at all of her concerns on anti-semitism she herself has encountered. Isn't that the root of the issue here?
The two things can be independent and both valid.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:02 - Oct 17 with 3114 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 07:45 - Oct 17 by BrixtonBlue |
My first thought was that it's really sad, what a shame.
My second thought was, why is she doing it now? The anti-semitism issue has been around for ages.
Some would like these things to be black and white to suit their agenda. They rarely are. |
Maybe people should start listening to Jewish people who are highlighting the institutional antisemitism in the Labiur party under Corbyn rather than always believing it’s part of a wider “agenda” and that there is an ulterior motive. It just plays up to the age old untrustworthy Jew trope.
Perhaps accept the racism Jews feel in the same way we would other ethnic minorities when they make their complaints.
To save 20 pages, if anyone says “where the evidence, check my posting history where I have linked page upon page of evidence and ask yourselves why the EHRC have launched a hull scale statutory investigation into the Labour Party for institutional antisemitism in the Labour Party?
No further need, wish or energy to comment any further. |  |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:04 - Oct 17 with 3112 views | Swansea_Blue |
Yeah, but what about Corbyn, eh?
Ah, this is about Corbyn. Carry on. |  |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:05 - Oct 17 with 3112 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:02 - Oct 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Maybe people should start listening to Jewish people who are highlighting the institutional antisemitism in the Labiur party under Corbyn rather than always believing it’s part of a wider “agenda” and that there is an ulterior motive. It just plays up to the age old untrustworthy Jew trope.
Perhaps accept the racism Jews feel in the same way we would other ethnic minorities when they make their complaints.
To save 20 pages, if anyone says “where the evidence, check my posting history where I have linked page upon page of evidence and ask yourselves why the EHRC have launched a hull scale statutory investigation into the Labour Party for institutional antisemitism in the Labour Party?
No further need, wish or energy to comment any further. |
"Â It just plays up to the age old untrustworthy Jew trope."
....and there's the Glasgow Blue Molotov cocktail.....pulled thread incoming! |  |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:22 - Oct 17 with 3086 views | lowhouseblue |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:02 - Oct 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Maybe people should start listening to Jewish people who are highlighting the institutional antisemitism in the Labiur party under Corbyn rather than always believing it’s part of a wider “agenda” and that there is an ulterior motive. It just plays up to the age old untrustworthy Jew trope.
Perhaps accept the racism Jews feel in the same way we would other ethnic minorities when they make their complaints.
To save 20 pages, if anyone says “where the evidence, check my posting history where I have linked page upon page of evidence and ask yourselves why the EHRC have launched a hull scale statutory investigation into the Labour Party for institutional antisemitism in the Labour Party?
No further need, wish or energy to comment any further. |
it's all been said before. the deputy leader, the shadow chancellor, most of the front bench, the head of momentum, most labour mps, all jewish organisations and the ehrc, all say it's a serious problem. and yet a small group persist with 'it's made up by uk jewish organisations working in cahoots with the Israeli embassy, but we're not racists'.
it's not worth another 10 pages and phil's hair won't take the stress. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:25 - Oct 17 with 3077 views | hampstead_blue |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 07:01 - Oct 17 by BlueBadger |
It's before 7 an I haven't had a cuppa yet. Truly coherent thoughts will not arise until roughly 9. |
2 cups of tea and a coffee before things start the stir and waken. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:28 - Oct 17 with 3068 views | ZedRodgers |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 08:56 - Oct 17 by StokieBlue |
Welcome back Zed, I trust all is well.
You know far more about the inner workings of seat than I so I'll assume those are all legitimate political points.
I would point out that your whole post was political points though, no mention at all of her concerns on anti-semitism she herself has encountered. Isn't that the root of the issue here?
The two things can be independent and both valid.
SB |
Thanks, SB. How was your summer?
I'm not disputing that she has encountered antisemitism but completely refute that it is "mainstream", as she stated. There is simply no evidence for this. This was of the reasons she cited but there is very little evidence to suggest she has received a disproportionate amount of racial abuse to others. Of course, any abuse whatsoever is unacceptable.
For every prominent non-Jewish member standing by her (Phillips, Creasy et al), there's a Jewish grassroots member who believes that the accusations re. antisemitism in her letter completely lack credibility, much like the situation with Ben Westerman in her CLP.
Trigger ballots are a nuisance and the process is not fit for purpose. I believe it's contributing to this kind of division within the Party. All MPs should face mandatory re-selection every time. | |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:31 - Oct 17 with 3058 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:22 - Oct 17 by lowhouseblue |
it's all been said before. the deputy leader, the shadow chancellor, most of the front bench, the head of momentum, most labour mps, all jewish organisations and the ehrc, all say it's a serious problem. and yet a small group persist with 'it's made up by uk jewish organisations working in cahoots with the Israeli embassy, but we're not racists'.
it's not worth another 10 pages and phil's hair won't take the stress. |
All anti semitism is serious ..... says nothing about volume. | |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:48 - Oct 17 with 3018 views | StokieBlue |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:28 - Oct 17 by ZedRodgers |
Thanks, SB. How was your summer?
I'm not disputing that she has encountered antisemitism but completely refute that it is "mainstream", as she stated. There is simply no evidence for this. This was of the reasons she cited but there is very little evidence to suggest she has received a disproportionate amount of racial abuse to others. Of course, any abuse whatsoever is unacceptable.
For every prominent non-Jewish member standing by her (Phillips, Creasy et al), there's a Jewish grassroots member who believes that the accusations re. antisemitism in her letter completely lack credibility, much like the situation with Ben Westerman in her CLP.
Trigger ballots are a nuisance and the process is not fit for purpose. I believe it's contributing to this kind of division within the Party. All MPs should face mandatory re-selection every time. |
Good thanks :).
If you're not disputing it exists then fair enough. I would think that the MP to grassroots member wasn't a very viable comparison though. I would think MPs will be subject to far more targeted instances than grassroots members and perhaps that is why other MPs see it more from her perspective?
I could be wrong on that though - I've not looked into the evidence with regards to my supposition.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:55 - Oct 17 with 3012 views | ZedRodgers |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:48 - Oct 17 by StokieBlue |
Good thanks :).
If you're not disputing it exists then fair enough. I would think that the MP to grassroots member wasn't a very viable comparison though. I would think MPs will be subject to far more targeted instances than grassroots members and perhaps that is why other MPs see it more from her perspective?
I could be wrong on that though - I've not looked into the evidence with regards to my supposition.
SB |
You are right - prominent figures would encounter it more, especially online.
I had Ellman's accusation that "Jews feel unsafe" in Labour in mind specifically and should have been more clear. | |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 10:03 - Oct 17 with 3001 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 08:32 - Oct 17 by StokieBlue |
You seem to want to know why everything is being done now, perhaps things just got too bad? Your insinuation is that her motives have nothing to do with her abuse and are for another reason.
You should either lay out your suspicions or accept her reasoning.
SB |
Not at all, and you seem to be missing my point. I'm just saying we should look deeper, especially where politics are concerned, rather than jump to the 'It's all Corbyn's fault default.'
Darth has already looked a bit deeper and it seems an anti-semitism issue generally rather than a specific Labour one. So many just want to go with what suits their narrative rather than bother with the facts, and what's behind them.
There's no excuse for anti-semitism but it's a fact that it's being weaponised by some (for clarity, I'm not saying she's doing this) |  |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 11:07 - Oct 17 with 2955 views | Ryorry |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 07:48 - Oct 17 by gordon |
Everybody stop!
Your time is valuable. It's all you have. Think carefully - when you're old, will you look back on your contribution to this thread and think, yes, I'm glad I got involved in that one? |
Very good point, but at the same time, many people think it's important to stand up for what they believe* is the truth, and others again to support those who they believe are standing up for the truth, plus refute anything they believe to be wrong.
*Other people believe different things of course, hence the clashes. |  |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 13:01 - Oct 17 with 2907 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:02 - Oct 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Maybe people should start listening to Jewish people who are highlighting the institutional antisemitism in the Labiur party under Corbyn rather than always believing it’s part of a wider “agenda” and that there is an ulterior motive. It just plays up to the age old untrustworthy Jew trope.
Perhaps accept the racism Jews feel in the same way we would other ethnic minorities when they make their complaints.
To save 20 pages, if anyone says “where the evidence, check my posting history where I have linked page upon page of evidence and ask yourselves why the EHRC have launched a hull scale statutory investigation into the Labour Party for institutional antisemitism in the Labour Party?
No further need, wish or energy to comment any further. |
"It just plays up to the age old untrustworthy Jew trope."
No, it plays into the 'politicians are untrustworthy' trope.
Or the 'people, generally, have different axes to grind' trope.
Interesting, though, that you went for the 'untrustworthy Jew' trope, which hadn't even crossed my mind. | |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 13:02 - Oct 17 with 2903 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:22 - Oct 17 by lowhouseblue |
it's all been said before. the deputy leader, the shadow chancellor, most of the front bench, the head of momentum, most labour mps, all jewish organisations and the ehrc, all say it's a serious problem. and yet a small group persist with 'it's made up by uk jewish organisations working in cahoots with the Israeli embassy, but we're not racists'.
it's not worth another 10 pages and phil's hair won't take the stress. |
You keep pushing this "it's all made up" stance when nobody has said that. You continually exaggerate what people have actually said. | |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 13:04 - Oct 17 with 2900 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:48 - Oct 17 by StokieBlue |
Good thanks :).
If you're not disputing it exists then fair enough. I would think that the MP to grassroots member wasn't a very viable comparison though. I would think MPs will be subject to far more targeted instances than grassroots members and perhaps that is why other MPs see it more from her perspective?
I could be wrong on that though - I've not looked into the evidence with regards to my supposition.
SB |
Nobody's disputing it exists. I wish we could all get away from this straw man. | |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 13:10 - Oct 17 with 2893 views | BiGDonnie |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 07:48 - Oct 17 by gordon |
Everybody stop!
Your time is valuable. It's all you have. Think carefully - when you're old, will you look back on your contribution to this thread and think, yes, I'm glad I got involved in that one? |
This is the only post TWTD'rs need to read today. |  |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 13:16 - Oct 17 with 2881 views | BiGDonnie |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 09:55 - Oct 17 by ZedRodgers |
You are right - prominent figures would encounter it more, especially online.
I had Ellman's accusation that "Jews feel unsafe" in Labour in mind specifically and should have been more clear. |
You and SB need a slap.
Well reasoned, respectful debate has no place here. | |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 13:20 - Oct 17 with 2873 views | ZedRodgers |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 13:16 - Oct 17 by BiGDonnie |
You and SB need a slap.
Well reasoned, respectful debate has no place here. |
I'm sorry that you feel that way but I respect your opinion. | |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 13:28 - Oct 17 with 2859 views | BiGDonnie |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 13:20 - Oct 17 by ZedRodgers |
I'm sorry that you feel that way but I respect your opinion. |
Motherfcuker
*In Samuel L Jackson voice* | |
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| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 16:25 - Oct 17 with 2824 views | Mullet |
| Well here's today's 20 pager destined to diisappear on 07:51 - Oct 17 by Dubtractor |
I am surprised just how invested people get in these threads/subjects.
I mean, I get that it is important and that people care about it, but these threads rarely end well do they? |
I had a brilliant almost zoo levels of deposit, break today and checked to see that Phil's actual thread what he started about all of this, had been err deleted it seems?!?! |  |
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