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They know, deep down, he's right. We don't need to eat animals. It is pretty cruel to breed them just to slaughter them, unless it's absolutely necessary for your survival (survival of the fittest). I think a lot of people are fighting with their own conscience and don't like that Callis is the one bringing that fight to the forefront of their minds.
For me, and I suspect a lot of us are the same, I was brought up believing eating animals was absolutely fine. I imagine in the early years I didn't even realise what I was eating. My dad would always drum into me about not wasting food... but then he, in turn, was brought up during the war when you couldn't be fussy. I bet there weren't many vegans knocking about in the 40's!
Also, animals do contain the nutrients we need AND our teeth are designed for tearing flesh.
Now, though, we have a choice. The problem is we've grown up with meat, we like it, and veganism seems a bit of a faff. That's the truth of it. I'll put a spider out in the garden rather than killing it but I'll happily tuck into a steak. We're hypocrites. Just accept that actually, however he expresses it, Callis is right. And then you won't get so angry.
Two things we can all do quite easily are eat less meat and eat outdoor-bred when we do have it. I do that, and although it's a long way short of what Callis is doing, it's better than nothing. And better for my conscience!
Right, need to get ready for heading oop north. I shall check back to see how this one turns out shortly!
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 14:28 - Jan 19 by BlueStreak
Surely by asking the questions that he did suggests he was considering going fishing again?! No evidence is required that said fishing took place, but that indeed Callis was happy to discard the welfare of the poor helpless fishy to enjoy an afternoon being 'chilled as f*ck'....
"considering". Maybe he considered, realised it would be hypocritical and thought again.
I'm sure you've thought hypocritical things, then thought better of it and decided otherwise. You are fully functioning and sentient being with your own moral code, after all... ;-)
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 12:59 - Jan 19 by monytowbray
Ryorry only eats humane meat that was raised freely in a field of rainbows and fed a diet of candy corn before being sent on a spa weekend and killed with kindness right before the end of it's natural lifespan I believe.
You see, you're a decent person on most of the evidence, but this is where you're too black and white. I was veggie for the best part of 15-20 years, supported groups like the anti-vivisection league, was involved in hunt sabbing and was briefly vegan. I understand your position and am speaking from personal knowledge.
The reason I went vegan was that in absolute moral terms it was the only justifiable position, anything less is hypocritical, and even then you would need to ensure that the materials you were using had not harmed animals through pollution, loss of habitat and so on.
After about 3-4 weeks I just couldn't do it any more. That's not to say it was impossible, but that it meant too many changes to my lifestyle (and 15 years ago there was far less awareness of veganism and fewer options for food/clothing).
So I pretty much went into toddler mode and decided if I couldn't be vegan, I might as well not bother with animal welfare at all. Looking at it in another way, I went from doing more for animal welfare than most, but not all I could, right back to avoiding the issue.
Having grown up a bit, I consider veganism as one end of a virtuous spectrum, with complete ignorance of animal welfare at the other. I place in different places on that spectrum on different issues. I eat meat 2-3 times a week, but make an effort to use a local butcher that I trust to source the meat from somewhere that treats the animals better than some anonymous slaughterhouse. That's about where I'm comfortable being balanced against imposing my views on my family, or cooking and eatng separate meals, and it's better than not bothering at all or eating meat every day. I'm perfectly aware of what I'm eating, and would be prepared to butcher an animal myself, or gut fish rather than pretending it just comes pre-packed and the death is nothing to do with me. I'm trying to choose at the moment between my opposition to fishing and the fact that my 9 year old wants his dad to take him fishing, which I have fond memories of doing with my dad.
Ryorry and I were able to have a perfectly civil exchange some time ago where we agreed that if everyone moved slightly along that spectrum it would do more for the cause of animal welfare than a small percentage of people becoming vegan. If you genuinely want to improve animal welfare, concentrate your effort on making them aware of how to make that small change, rather than taking the binary view that it's all or nothing.
Dolly's original post is probably not far from the truth, people do make up their own moral justifications for the way they act, but if all you are doing is pushing them into hardening their resolve I have to question what you're trying to achieve?
TWTD Cycling Herbert
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I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 14:38 - Jan 19 with 6454 views
To save some time, the relevant quote from the ex-humane Pig farmer is
“Our customers loved to hear that the pigs had had “a good life” and how “humane” our meat was. But of course, they didn’t want to hear about the ugly side of raising the animals. If I’d told them that a mother sow didn’t want to be separated from her babies or that the pigs screamed with anguish as they were loaded onto the lorry bound for the abattoir, I wouldn’t have kept a single customer.”
*Swedish* farmer, not UK. And that sounds like bulk transport by a stranger, not exactly small-scale (except by comparison with factory farming of thousands perhaps).
One of the worst things HMG did back in the 90s tho, was shut down the smaller UK abbatoirs.
Always took my own pigs and lambs up to our local one - 3 stables round the back of the village butcher. They went up & in, quietly nosed around & then slept untroubled as if at home.
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 14:36 - Jan 19 by Throbbe
You see, you're a decent person on most of the evidence, but this is where you're too black and white. I was veggie for the best part of 15-20 years, supported groups like the anti-vivisection league, was involved in hunt sabbing and was briefly vegan. I understand your position and am speaking from personal knowledge.
The reason I went vegan was that in absolute moral terms it was the only justifiable position, anything less is hypocritical, and even then you would need to ensure that the materials you were using had not harmed animals through pollution, loss of habitat and so on.
After about 3-4 weeks I just couldn't do it any more. That's not to say it was impossible, but that it meant too many changes to my lifestyle (and 15 years ago there was far less awareness of veganism and fewer options for food/clothing).
So I pretty much went into toddler mode and decided if I couldn't be vegan, I might as well not bother with animal welfare at all. Looking at it in another way, I went from doing more for animal welfare than most, but not all I could, right back to avoiding the issue.
Having grown up a bit, I consider veganism as one end of a virtuous spectrum, with complete ignorance of animal welfare at the other. I place in different places on that spectrum on different issues. I eat meat 2-3 times a week, but make an effort to use a local butcher that I trust to source the meat from somewhere that treats the animals better than some anonymous slaughterhouse. That's about where I'm comfortable being balanced against imposing my views on my family, or cooking and eatng separate meals, and it's better than not bothering at all or eating meat every day. I'm perfectly aware of what I'm eating, and would be prepared to butcher an animal myself, or gut fish rather than pretending it just comes pre-packed and the death is nothing to do with me. I'm trying to choose at the moment between my opposition to fishing and the fact that my 9 year old wants his dad to take him fishing, which I have fond memories of doing with my dad.
Ryorry and I were able to have a perfectly civil exchange some time ago where we agreed that if everyone moved slightly along that spectrum it would do more for the cause of animal welfare than a small percentage of people becoming vegan. If you genuinely want to improve animal welfare, concentrate your effort on making them aware of how to make that small change, rather than taking the binary view that it's all or nothing.
Dolly's original post is probably not far from the truth, people do make up their own moral justifications for the way they act, but if all you are doing is pushing them into hardening their resolve I have to question what you're trying to achieve?
My perspective exactly, thank you for putting it far better than I managed to!
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 14:36 - Jan 19 by Throbbe
You see, you're a decent person on most of the evidence, but this is where you're too black and white. I was veggie for the best part of 15-20 years, supported groups like the anti-vivisection league, was involved in hunt sabbing and was briefly vegan. I understand your position and am speaking from personal knowledge.
The reason I went vegan was that in absolute moral terms it was the only justifiable position, anything less is hypocritical, and even then you would need to ensure that the materials you were using had not harmed animals through pollution, loss of habitat and so on.
After about 3-4 weeks I just couldn't do it any more. That's not to say it was impossible, but that it meant too many changes to my lifestyle (and 15 years ago there was far less awareness of veganism and fewer options for food/clothing).
So I pretty much went into toddler mode and decided if I couldn't be vegan, I might as well not bother with animal welfare at all. Looking at it in another way, I went from doing more for animal welfare than most, but not all I could, right back to avoiding the issue.
Having grown up a bit, I consider veganism as one end of a virtuous spectrum, with complete ignorance of animal welfare at the other. I place in different places on that spectrum on different issues. I eat meat 2-3 times a week, but make an effort to use a local butcher that I trust to source the meat from somewhere that treats the animals better than some anonymous slaughterhouse. That's about where I'm comfortable being balanced against imposing my views on my family, or cooking and eatng separate meals, and it's better than not bothering at all or eating meat every day. I'm perfectly aware of what I'm eating, and would be prepared to butcher an animal myself, or gut fish rather than pretending it just comes pre-packed and the death is nothing to do with me. I'm trying to choose at the moment between my opposition to fishing and the fact that my 9 year old wants his dad to take him fishing, which I have fond memories of doing with my dad.
Ryorry and I were able to have a perfectly civil exchange some time ago where we agreed that if everyone moved slightly along that spectrum it would do more for the cause of animal welfare than a small percentage of people becoming vegan. If you genuinely want to improve animal welfare, concentrate your effort on making them aware of how to make that small change, rather than taking the binary view that it's all or nothing.
Dolly's original post is probably not far from the truth, people do make up their own moral justifications for the way they act, but if all you are doing is pushing them into hardening their resolve I have to question what you're trying to achieve?
Having grown up a bit, I consider veganism as one end of a virtuous spectrum, with complete ignorance of animal welfare at the other. I place in different places on that spectrum on different issues.
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 14:36 - Jan 19 by Throbbe
You see, you're a decent person on most of the evidence, but this is where you're too black and white. I was veggie for the best part of 15-20 years, supported groups like the anti-vivisection league, was involved in hunt sabbing and was briefly vegan. I understand your position and am speaking from personal knowledge.
The reason I went vegan was that in absolute moral terms it was the only justifiable position, anything less is hypocritical, and even then you would need to ensure that the materials you were using had not harmed animals through pollution, loss of habitat and so on.
After about 3-4 weeks I just couldn't do it any more. That's not to say it was impossible, but that it meant too many changes to my lifestyle (and 15 years ago there was far less awareness of veganism and fewer options for food/clothing).
So I pretty much went into toddler mode and decided if I couldn't be vegan, I might as well not bother with animal welfare at all. Looking at it in another way, I went from doing more for animal welfare than most, but not all I could, right back to avoiding the issue.
Having grown up a bit, I consider veganism as one end of a virtuous spectrum, with complete ignorance of animal welfare at the other. I place in different places on that spectrum on different issues. I eat meat 2-3 times a week, but make an effort to use a local butcher that I trust to source the meat from somewhere that treats the animals better than some anonymous slaughterhouse. That's about where I'm comfortable being balanced against imposing my views on my family, or cooking and eatng separate meals, and it's better than not bothering at all or eating meat every day. I'm perfectly aware of what I'm eating, and would be prepared to butcher an animal myself, or gut fish rather than pretending it just comes pre-packed and the death is nothing to do with me. I'm trying to choose at the moment between my opposition to fishing and the fact that my 9 year old wants his dad to take him fishing, which I have fond memories of doing with my dad.
Ryorry and I were able to have a perfectly civil exchange some time ago where we agreed that if everyone moved slightly along that spectrum it would do more for the cause of animal welfare than a small percentage of people becoming vegan. If you genuinely want to improve animal welfare, concentrate your effort on making them aware of how to make that small change, rather than taking the binary view that it's all or nothing.
Dolly's original post is probably not far from the truth, people do make up their own moral justifications for the way they act, but if all you are doing is pushing them into hardening their resolve I have to question what you're trying to achieve?
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 14:32 - Jan 19 by Superfrans
"considering". Maybe he considered, realised it would be hypocritical and thought again.
I'm sure you've thought hypocritical things, then thought better of it and decided otherwise. You are fully functioning and sentient being with your own moral code, after all... ;-)
I agree, hence why I don't preach and am fully aware that everything isn't just black or white.....
To save some time, the relevant quote from the ex-humane Pig farmer is
“Our customers loved to hear that the pigs had had “a good life” and how “humane” our meat was. But of course, they didn’t want to hear about the ugly side of raising the animals. If I’d told them that a mother sow didn’t want to be separated from her babies or that the pigs screamed with anguish as they were loaded onto the lorry bound for the abattoir, I wouldn’t have kept a single customer.”
I've had a read of that. It's rather vague and from a vegan site. I'd need to look into it in more depth.
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 14:36 - Jan 19 by Throbbe
You see, you're a decent person on most of the evidence, but this is where you're too black and white. I was veggie for the best part of 15-20 years, supported groups like the anti-vivisection league, was involved in hunt sabbing and was briefly vegan. I understand your position and am speaking from personal knowledge.
The reason I went vegan was that in absolute moral terms it was the only justifiable position, anything less is hypocritical, and even then you would need to ensure that the materials you were using had not harmed animals through pollution, loss of habitat and so on.
After about 3-4 weeks I just couldn't do it any more. That's not to say it was impossible, but that it meant too many changes to my lifestyle (and 15 years ago there was far less awareness of veganism and fewer options for food/clothing).
So I pretty much went into toddler mode and decided if I couldn't be vegan, I might as well not bother with animal welfare at all. Looking at it in another way, I went from doing more for animal welfare than most, but not all I could, right back to avoiding the issue.
Having grown up a bit, I consider veganism as one end of a virtuous spectrum, with complete ignorance of animal welfare at the other. I place in different places on that spectrum on different issues. I eat meat 2-3 times a week, but make an effort to use a local butcher that I trust to source the meat from somewhere that treats the animals better than some anonymous slaughterhouse. That's about where I'm comfortable being balanced against imposing my views on my family, or cooking and eatng separate meals, and it's better than not bothering at all or eating meat every day. I'm perfectly aware of what I'm eating, and would be prepared to butcher an animal myself, or gut fish rather than pretending it just comes pre-packed and the death is nothing to do with me. I'm trying to choose at the moment between my opposition to fishing and the fact that my 9 year old wants his dad to take him fishing, which I have fond memories of doing with my dad.
Ryorry and I were able to have a perfectly civil exchange some time ago where we agreed that if everyone moved slightly along that spectrum it would do more for the cause of animal welfare than a small percentage of people becoming vegan. If you genuinely want to improve animal welfare, concentrate your effort on making them aware of how to make that small change, rather than taking the binary view that it's all or nothing.
Dolly's original post is probably not far from the truth, people do make up their own moral justifications for the way they act, but if all you are doing is pushing them into hardening their resolve I have to question what you're trying to achieve?
The thing I find interesting with the list of stories, is that they follow a similar trajectory, that I went on, a long time ago, except I was never a farmer, but I have family that were.
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I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 15:00 - Jan 19 with 6374 views
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 14:36 - Jan 19 by Throbbe
You see, you're a decent person on most of the evidence, but this is where you're too black and white. I was veggie for the best part of 15-20 years, supported groups like the anti-vivisection league, was involved in hunt sabbing and was briefly vegan. I understand your position and am speaking from personal knowledge.
The reason I went vegan was that in absolute moral terms it was the only justifiable position, anything less is hypocritical, and even then you would need to ensure that the materials you were using had not harmed animals through pollution, loss of habitat and so on.
After about 3-4 weeks I just couldn't do it any more. That's not to say it was impossible, but that it meant too many changes to my lifestyle (and 15 years ago there was far less awareness of veganism and fewer options for food/clothing).
So I pretty much went into toddler mode and decided if I couldn't be vegan, I might as well not bother with animal welfare at all. Looking at it in another way, I went from doing more for animal welfare than most, but not all I could, right back to avoiding the issue.
Having grown up a bit, I consider veganism as one end of a virtuous spectrum, with complete ignorance of animal welfare at the other. I place in different places on that spectrum on different issues. I eat meat 2-3 times a week, but make an effort to use a local butcher that I trust to source the meat from somewhere that treats the animals better than some anonymous slaughterhouse. That's about where I'm comfortable being balanced against imposing my views on my family, or cooking and eatng separate meals, and it's better than not bothering at all or eating meat every day. I'm perfectly aware of what I'm eating, and would be prepared to butcher an animal myself, or gut fish rather than pretending it just comes pre-packed and the death is nothing to do with me. I'm trying to choose at the moment between my opposition to fishing and the fact that my 9 year old wants his dad to take him fishing, which I have fond memories of doing with my dad.
Ryorry and I were able to have a perfectly civil exchange some time ago where we agreed that if everyone moved slightly along that spectrum it would do more for the cause of animal welfare than a small percentage of people becoming vegan. If you genuinely want to improve animal welfare, concentrate your effort on making them aware of how to make that small change, rather than taking the binary view that it's all or nothing.
Dolly's original post is probably not far from the truth, people do make up their own moral justifications for the way they act, but if all you are doing is pushing them into hardening their resolve I have to question what you're trying to achieve?
"if everyone moved slightly along that spectrum it would do more for the cause of animal welfare than a small percentage of people becoming vegan. If you genuinely want to improve animal welfare, concentrate your effort on making them aware of how to make that small change, rather than taking the binary view that it's all or nothing."
Well said. That will stick with me and seems to reflect the steps our own family has taken due to the coaxing of our youngest daughter. Also a perfect time for me to leave the current debate behind.
Pronouns: He/Him
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I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 15:08 - Jan 19 with 6332 views
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 14:43 - Jan 19 by J2BLUE
Having grown up a bit, I consider veganism as one end of a virtuous spectrum, with complete ignorance of animal welfare at the other. I place in different places on that spectrum on different issues.
Sounds like a grey area
Life's full of them. ;)
TWTD Cycling Herbert
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I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 15:15 - Jan 19 with 6306 views
Massive irony here, but really not surprised at all
BrixtonBlue accused me of "starting trouble" and trying to start an argument for offering different opinions to Callis the other day.
I don't know how old you are Brixton but maturity will come soon enough, your mentality reminds me of myself when I was in the first year of uni about 10 years ago.
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I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 15:24 - Jan 19 with 6274 views
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 11:13 - Jan 19 by monytowbray
Preach.
Queue triggered meat eaters!
You'll probably lazily and ignorantly call me ignorant like you did before but you guys put meat in my head by constantly going on about it - I didn't see any vegan social media posts yesterday and actually didn't eat any meat, I've seen this today and now actually fancy a burger - your failing :)
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I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 15:27 - Jan 19 with 6259 views
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 15:23 - Jan 19 by jaseitfc
Massive irony here, but really not surprised at all
BrixtonBlue accused me of "starting trouble" and trying to start an argument for offering different opinions to Callis the other day.
I don't know how old you are Brixton but maturity will come soon enough, your mentality reminds me of myself when I was in the first year of uni about 10 years ago.
I think you've interpreted things somewhat differently to the reality there. I've nothing against alternative opinions if they're valid and put in a reasonable way. From what I recall, yours were silly whataboutery.
Ironically, saying someone must be young as they're so immature is immature in itself.
Feel free to tell me which bits of my OP are immature, Captain Sensible.
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 15:43 - Jan 19 by BrixtonBlue
I think you've interpreted things somewhat differently to the reality there. I've nothing against alternative opinions if they're valid and put in a reasonable way. From what I recall, yours were silly whataboutery.
Ironically, saying someone must be young as they're so immature is immature in itself.
Feel free to tell me which bits of my OP are immature, Captain Sensible.
I didn't read your opinion to be honest, I know all the arguments, you could tell me I'll start pooping gold if I stop drinking milk and I wouldn't care, and further to that I just interpret your post as trying to wind people up on here unnecessarily.
Your sign off "captain sensible" confirms my view of you - how old are you out of curiosity?
Isnt the phone data or laptop battery you are using to write these terrible posts causing something unethical to happen? I really wish not using message boards was a central tenant of veganism
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I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 16:10 - Jan 19 with 6171 views
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 15:04 - Jan 19 by monytowbray
Give what another go? Changing my views by taking in new information?
I find the bringing up of old posts against you tiresome in this respect - think it adds no real value as changing your mind and your ways is allowed and to be expected
Just thought I'd say something positive for once, even though I don't think you are getting unfairly treated.......!
I think I know why people get so angry with Callis on 15:56 - Jan 19 by jaseitfc
I didn't read your opinion to be honest, I know all the arguments, you could tell me I'll start pooping gold if I stop drinking milk and I wouldn't care, and further to that I just interpret your post as trying to wind people up on here unnecessarily.
Your sign off "captain sensible" confirms my view of you - how old are you out of curiosity?
Isnt the phone data or laptop battery you are using to write these terrible posts causing something unethical to happen? I really wish not using message boards was a central tenant of veganism
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